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#1
21st July 2007, 11:43 PM
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This post is, I admit, a historic picture, rather than current useful cruising information, however it may be of some interest to a few members.
I have cut and paste my very recent post regarding Jupiter and Tawan. I mentioned that Tawan was originally on Suriwongse road. This prompted a comment from Wowpow, so I'll continue some further details. Yes, Tawan was originally on Suriwonge road. Go back to suriwongse from current location, turn left, walk around 50 metres, turn left and walk down a long thin corridor and up the back stairs, very long very thin bar. Same owner as today. At first he had very young much smaller boys, not high body definition, mostly very narluk types, but not many real ladyboy types. They danced full naked with one hand always over their plumbing. Then owner suddenly changed to older boys, I guess 19 to 25 years age group, mostly very masculine types, perhaps 60% with excellent definition, but no whales or bodybuilder competition types like today, plus about 40% just nice slim bodies. In those days short change was common, I can remember dozens of times seeing customers insist the waiter or captain wait whilst customer counted the change, discovered it was short, then back to the cashiers desk to get the rest of the change. Most of the time the owner was working as the cashier. In the old location Tawan had a whole different atmosphere to what it is today. My first visit to Bangkok was more than 26 years ago. In those days Twilight (now Hotmale) was in a different location, other side of Suriwongse, back towards Patpong, you had to walk up a steep ramp to second floor entrance door, same old gatoey owners who recently sold the new Twilight to the Hotmale owner. The new Twilight was the only gay bar in that soi for many many years. Now of course this soi is the centre of go go bar action. In those days Barbiery was very popular, and Barbiery occupied two floors for a while, upper floor also had go go dancing, customers could take their drinks backwards and forwards across either floor. Owner was ruthless and controlled the boys very strongly, and they were frightened of the owner. Back in the era I'm mentioning many go go bars had rules like; 'No off for 7 days, boy cannot continue work / is automatically dismissed'. Most go go bars were located in the soi where telephone and Balcony now located. I can recall perhaps 7 or 8 go go bars in that soi. Biggest of all was a place called, if my memory is correct, 'Henry J Morgans'. Very large bar, I think it was located above what is now Balcony. Often 200 or so boys per night, many well under age, also up to perhaps 25 years old. Lots of full nudity, continuous different sex shows, often with 14 years old boys fucking 14 year olds (obviously i'm guessing the ages.) Short time rooms on the premises. I think it was 60 Baht off, and a 'normal' tip was 300Baht, generous tip 400Baht. Also from memory two go go bars just down Soi Saladaeng, and 2 just down Soi Convent. One at the end of Soi Convent near the Shell Service Station, now it's a dental surgery. Plus Harry's bar (opposite what is now DJ Station) which operated for many many years as a very active late night freelance bar. Then Harry's became a go go bar for maybe 5 years, then closed. Also a sauna/massage parlour, upstairs, in the next soi after soi Nana, left side of Sukhumvit going out of the city. For a 40Baht fee customers could select massage boys to dance, usually a 10 minute or so segment. In Soi 10, sukhumvit, Inter Moustache House was already established, many hot boys, continuous go go dancing, very different management approach compared to today, much more relaxed, no push, many customers, lots of nice memories. Further down soi 10 around into a tiny soi was 'Gemini something'. Had very very hot young men, many were well know (put poor) Thai sportsmen, had some go go dancing segments. Farang customers not admitted. I entered this bar once with a Thai friend who has since passed away, he was a high profile Gay Magazine publisher. He indicated that he wanted his farang friend to go inside. Closed quite a few years ago. Then a woman owner tried to restablish the 'famous Thai sportmen' flavor in a place on Sukhumvit near the PTT service staion on corner of Soi Nana. Extremely pushy / rude female staff, venue failed and closed quickly. Also Stockholm bar which moved several times, at one stage occupied a very large beautiful old Thai house in Soi Suan Phlu. Touts picked up prospective customers on Silom road, drove then to Stockholm. They enticed customers to select two boys to do a private fuck show, which generated further 'business'. Often had 100 boys to select from, all types, many hot boys. Supan Kwai had perhaps 4 or 5 go go bars, biggest was probably 'K Nude' which started on Phayonyothin, about 150 metres back from Pradiphat Interesection. Upstairs go go lounge, mildly wild west decor, lots of very hot young men, very farang friendly, some very nice memories from here. Just down a close by soi was 'Paradise (something)', specialized in seriously underage go go boys. Closed many years ago. Then 'Adam' bar just around in Pradiphat, same soi as the old cruising theatre, had go go boys but very slow, one boy at a time. Way down Pradiphat another go go bar called '7 Night', also moved many times, many hot young men but they paniced when farang customers entered. What is now 'Charming' started many years back, several name/owner changes, at various stages had go go dancing. Across the road just back a little from Pradiphat road was 'Aladdin' bar, had go go and sometimes had sex shows. Thai owner was a nasty item. Several times heard gossip that he often demanded money from the working boys. A couple of times I saw this character slap boys. Staff were all obnoxious gatoey. No hesiation to pad the bill, regular distasteful loud comments from the gatoey about smelly farang etc, etc. Back down Phayonyothin somewhere near Phaya Thai Hospital 2, another go go bar, 99% Thai customers, really hot boys. This place had established an image as the premier place for rich thai customers / politicians etc. Farang allowed to enter, but mostly ignored by the boys and the management. Thai customers often not happy that farang were present. Very large tips regularly handed out to the working boys, staff etc. This bar has some connection to a similar, less high profile go go lounge way down the soi off Phetchaburi road which is directly opposite the Siam Commercial Bank complex on the corner of Soi Chidlom. This place had continuous slide slows of the working boys, in small bikinis. Slides projected high up on one wall, very large pictures. Many hot boys. Also many, mostly Thai customer oriented, cocktail lounges all along Phayonyothin road, also many further down Sukhumvit road. As I said above, this is historic, rather then current crusiing information, but maybe of some interest.       |
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#2
22nd July 2007, 12:08 AM
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Great stuff scoops. It is fascinating to see how gay bars in Thailand has developed.
I never quite understood why go-go bars became the first gay bars. I have read that it was something to do with the difficulties of getting a liquor license and a dancing license. So the girl bars started go-go dancing and the boys bars followed suit. Does.t ring very likely. The first gay bar I'm told, was Sea Hag which moved to Phuket and became a popular gay restaurant. Twilight was second and was the main gay bar for a long time and specialized in sleaze. The only other bar in Soi Twilight was Chardonnay. Did you ever get to Rome Club which was the Studio 54 of Asia in it's day and was gay owned and had a mixed clientele? Tell us more about the prices please. I guess that the baht was fixed at about 25 to the US$ in those days? Were there many farangs around? Was there anything in Pattaya or the provinces? What about cruising, toilets, cinemas? Am I asking too much? |
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#3
22nd July 2007, 02:34 AM
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Hi wowpow,
I can share some comments, but I don't know the answers to all your points. I don't know the ancient history of how gay bars developed in Thailand, however, like any country/culture, the gay culture is as long as history itself. But I do know that many Thais see gay bars as 'boy bars' rather than specifically 'gay bars', which is the label that we farang would of course mostly use. In fact I' have occasionally heard Thai owners use this explanation when they have angry farang who perhaps offed a boy then discovered the boy is not Gay (Gay as in the western context.) Today, in most of the bigger / medium size Thai country cities, there are very discreet places where boys are available. No signs, never will be, so you have to know a local who is familiar with whats happening in each of these places. Twenty years back Chiang Mai had many tiny go go venues, maybe as many as 15 venues. Korat had several, also Udon Thani and Suko Thai. I'm not so sure that "....the difficulties of getting a liquor license and a dancing license...." is all that relevant. My understanding is that places with singers has a very long history, with both boy and girl singers, both the boys and the girls available to either male or female customers. From my understanding this goes back decades before go go bars. In fact this makes me recall a go go bar about 150 metres past what is now 'Nature Boy'. It closed many years ago, but for many years they had a mix of boys and girls dancing. (M & F dancing together, rather than a boy session, then a girl session), typical go go bar format. Mostly Thai customers, male and female, male customers not embarrased about asking for a boy to sit down, etc. Mostly very masculine boys, maybe 20 to late twenties age group. I have good memories from taking boys from this place. You prabaly know that there are many women only (female customers only)venues in Bangkok (probably also in places like Phuket, Korat, Khon Kaen, Chiang Mai, Pattaya, Hat Yai, etc., also.), with many handsome waiters who are available. Customers are 99.9% Thai women, mostly very successful outgoing business women. There was such a venue under the Ambassador hotel for many years, maybe still operates, I don't know. Also same type of venue under an older hotel in Sukhumvit road just past Emporium, This place owned by a very wealthy Thai business woman, made a huge fortune decades back. Gatoey customers not allowed to enter. Owner is a tough woman, her husband also very successful business man. I went to their home in Bkk several times for business meetings (different type of business), maybe 15 / 18 years ago. Several teenage children at the house, also always several minor wives of the husband, and the wife always had three or four waiters from her club at her home, waiters always dressed in black formal pants but no shirt. My understanding is that these venues are not go go venues, but some have short time periods when the waiters take off their shirts. I can recall the name 'sea-hag' from years ago, but I can't recall ever visiting the place. 'Twilight' was always sleaze palace, even more so years back, when the bar was small and across the corner where the drinks are poured now, with a small stage behind the drinks preparation area, with the rest of the room basically an open space, with lost of sleaze activity. For a while the dancing activity was only on the small stage, behind the bar, then they added a small round low stage area around one of the central columns supporting the building, from memory this was located in the middle of the room. Boys danced naked in a small circle, with lots of groping from customers. 'Chardonnay' is much more recent history, but now closed for several years. Many people believed that the word Chardonnay was a clever 'cover up' of the words 'hard on' (c HARDON nay). This reminds me of the original 'Super A', for many years on ground level under the current location. Quite big room, lots of extemely girlie layboys but some hot masculine boys, also a sleaze palace. Common to see the masculine working boys sitting in the customer area fucking ladyboys. In those days condons were not used. The bar was the whole length of one side of the room. Often there would be many boys sitting on the bar, naked, with customers sucking them. This place had short time rooms at the back, probably the dirtiest short time rooms in the whole world. Yes, I went to Rome Club in it's earlier history. You could occasionally pick up genuine young Thai gay men who were looking for adventure, not money, and of course there were money boy freelancers. In that era Rome club did some advertising as a gay venue, but the majority of the crowd was mixed, mostly farang tourists. As you might know, the farang owner of Rome club, at one point, supposedly said some very negative things about gays and did a lot of damage to his business. After that incident Rome lost a large number of customers, then the owner seemed to institute a strong arrogance working style in his staff. Extreme arrrogance and rudeness from Thai staff at the entrance door was common. Like many farang locals I stopped going there. Eventually the place changed hands. From memory, 25 years back the exchange rate was about 35Baht to the dollar, however if I recall correctly there was a time period when the rate was fixed at 25Baht to the dollar. My memory not too strong on this point. 25 years back the number of overall gay farang customers at go go venues was much less than in recent years. |
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#4
22nd July 2007, 04:08 AM
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Sorry wowpow,
to complete answers to your questions: - Pattaya was quite active, many go go boy venues, but mostly small and not all that many customers, but I guess a little more farang than Thai. The bar now called 'Soho' was already established under diferent name. There was one place quite big, since completely gone, located somewhere around where UOB Bank is now located on South Pattaya Road, just around the corner from current Dream boys etc. Many hot boys, very popular, very friendly. Obviously, many years back the land owner decided to get much better return and this place closed. No gay venues in the Jomtien or Sunee plaza areas. 'Nautilus' was already well established maybe 20 years back. This was in North Pattaya, behind what was Brunos restaurant, which has now moved to the road going down to Jomtien. 'Nautilus' was a mock up of a submarine. Had many hot boys, mostly masculine types, dancing on small low stage very close to customer seating, plus every hour all the boys swam / did water 'aerobics' routines, in the pool, which had many large 'porthole' windows. Very sexy. This venue closed I guess 10 to 12 years back. I have fond memories of this place, where I met a sea gypsy young man from the South of Thailand, about 25 years old, total dream (for me) in every way: great body / very masculine / gentle fun personality / totally hairless / very affectionate. Many times I spend my week-ends in Pattaya with him. Typical situation of a young man with wife at home, but for him sex was sex, enjoy it in any form. Eventually he went home, great memories. Twenty years back there was also a place called 'Homex Inn' even further down into North Pattaya. This was a small 2 star hotel, with a go go boy corner. Lots of very hot boys. Also had a swimming pool, and many of the boys hung around the pool in their speedos/underwear in the day time and did lots of short-time business in the hotel rooms. Also some good memories from here. I think hotel room was about 100Baht. Off fee was I think 50Baht, all night companion maybe 200Baht. Short time session from the swimming pool, maybe 80-100Baht. In same era there was a 'gay' hotel already in operation where 'Cafe-Royale' is now located. Different owner to now, the old place was quite grotty, nothing like today, had a simple coffee shop, again nothing like the restaurant today. Young farang owner was eventually run out of town, so the story goes. If I recall this was because of non payment of debts incurred. I recall one incident outside this hotel in the daytime when a farang was beaten up by a group of go go boys, who claimed they had all gone through the same non payment routine with this character: - Boy gets offed from a bar, farang demands sex all night, next morning farang claims he has run out of cash, says he will change travellers cheque* during the day and come back to the boys venue that evening with payment. Never reappeared. Apparently this had happened every night for quite a few nights. The word spread quickly to beware of this character. Eventually boys get together and tracked him down, and Farang gets severely beaten up, police arrive, farang taken promptly to Don Muang airport after healthy payment arranged for the go go boys. (*in these days no ATM machines yet in Thailand with international withdrawal facilities, everything was done by travellers cheques.) Jomtien beach already busy, but not the volume of today. Quite a few freelance beach boys. Back then you could see lots of very very open sex activity with very young underage boys. I can recall a couple of incidents when other gay beach goers got very angry with these people and demanded they immediately leave the beach, under threat of violence. Thrown off the beach by the other beach goers. Service Kiosks already existed, but only maybe 2 places. Sorry I can't comment about shopping centre cruising, cinemas etc., this is just not my scene. (Not meaning to be judgemental, what others do is their business totally.) |
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#5
22nd July 2007, 06:39 AM
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My first memory of Pattaya - back in the late '80s. - was staying in the 'Homex Inn.' - may happy memories of the boyz swimming in their pool, some quite often 'au naturel.'!
I went to BKK. first of all in the late summer of '87. and stayed in the 'Suriwongse Hotel.', as most of us of did in those far-off daze! Si Lom 6 had several bars: 'Green Carnation.' is in my memory. I liked 'Harry's Bar.' v. much and during my annual visits on leave had an affair of several yrs. with their lead-dancer: part US. Negro & part TH., (shamefully I forget his name - he became a monk in Ayuddhaya.), after 'Harry's.' closed for the night we went upstairs to 'Ciro's.', (?), fror more drinking and so on. Several a go-go bars upstairs in Si Lom 2 - generally quite fun. Memories of 'Rome Club.', too. Memories of both 'Super A.' & of 'Adam Bar.' - but never did go-in to 'Ciro's Sweet Cigar.'. Nowadays is so tame in comparison - today's younger folk just don't know what they're missing - sigh! 'bye.. |
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#6
22nd July 2007, 07:32 AM
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Sextile, you obviously saw this same era. I have a quick theory, can I please ask for your comment on this:
Back 20 years ago, cost of hotels, drinks, off fees, tips was much less, and very very cheap for most farang. My memory is that the number of farang customers was far less, but many customers were very active. I suspect this was mostly because it was so cheap, therefore many boys got customers. I offed boys very often, sometimes twice in one night. Financially it was nothing. I recall staying for several days in Homex Inn in Pattaya, and taking 4 or 5 boys to my room every day, for overall very little cost. (Let alone the child drooling/lusting in the candy shop aspect, well at least for me.) Today pricing is very much higher all round. I think boys get off much much less than 20 years ago, I theorize this is mainly because of much increased costs: drinks, off fees, hotel short time rooms, expected tips. (Another but different point, 20 years back, in my experience, it was very rare to off a boy and then discover arrogance, refusal to fulfill promised services, lame excuses 'toothache' / 'have to go in ten minutes to my friends birthday party', etc. This is a second reason why, today, I am very selective, and I ensure there is very detailed, polite, discussion and agreement before leaving the bar.) (There is of course the other side of the equation, cost of living in Bkk, for Thais is now extremely high and rising, meaning that people need more money to pay their rent, to eat, to survice living in Bkk. ) Would appreciate your thoughts. |
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#7
22nd July 2007, 11:18 AM
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Scoops,
Many thanks for your reminiscences! My first trip to Bangkok took place in 1993, so I am very interested in the times before that. I never used the go go bar scene much (I prefer to find real gay guys at DJ Station or online), but the change in the scene over the years is fascinating to me. |
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#8
22nd July 2007, 12:48 PM
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My memories of the scene don't go back 25 years, but they do go back 20. I remember Adonis, approximately where Sphinx is today. And Green Carnation, in Soi 6, where the boys line up to have their turn French-kissing the early 20's version of me...just because they wanted to!
Tawan was, as said, on Suriwong, upstairs. A very narrow, and not very memorable place. Twilight was my first off ever. The boy was 16, if I recall -- it was much more common to find underage kids in the bars back then. As I was only 20, maybe it wasn't so disgraceful (I would never touch a below-19 these days). The fuck show at Barbeiry was raw and bare-back, and I remember one time the bottom reaching over to French kiss several members of the audience as he was being pummeled from behind. As for expense, I think the price of a good time has gone up surprisingly little since then. I remember tipping 500 baht for short time, even back then. Factoring in inflation and exchange rate fluctuations, I think the boys today are relatively less well-compensated than they were back then. Twilight was the only bar on "Soi Twilight" when I first went there...and it was pretty raunchy (and young). I remember Stockholm when it was on Soi Langsuan -- not Soi Suan Plu (was it also on Suan Plu before that?). Tulip bar in Soi Saladaeng was still around -- reportedly the first "off" bar in Bangkok, dating back to 1969. Before that, you had only freelancers in places like the Sea Hag on Charoenkrung (or so I'm told). |
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#9
22nd July 2007, 11:29 PM
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You have stirred up fond memories, icon513. My first ever experpience in Bangkok was at Stockholm around 1980. 2 boys just blew my innocent European mind - in addition to everything else. And I was a regular at Apollo in the early 80's. Was that also in Soi 4? Can't remember now.
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#11
23rd July 2007, 09:36 AM
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Great post, Scoops! That brings back memories of my own. I've been going to the local bars since 1992; the first few years as a tourist (visiting twice a year) and then as a local since '96.
I used to love Harry's Bar. Very friendly - and attractive - staff, and nice locals that went there. Very fun atmosphere with the music and the shows. I greatly miss that place. I went to Rome Club a few times with some of the waiters from Harry's. That was back in the early 90s before Rome Club blundered into alienating the gay community and never recovered. It used to be a very fun place. Yes, the old Super A was very wild. And Lucky S was good for a while, then giving way to the Khun Bar/Sweet Cigar/Alek string of bars. Always cheap drinks and friendly boys in those bars. And most of them did "everything." In Saphan Khwai I also like K-Nude and Midnight Cowboy (wonderful bar and also sadly missed). Apache was okay but never as good as Cowboy. Across the street on Pradiphat, New Wave had a good short run. The old Adam had some hot numbers (back when they allowed go-go) and Eagle and Stax also had their moments. Aladdin was also good for a few years but you are right about that owner; what a sour-faced cunt. I think all the dancers hated that guy. When I think about how many great bars there used to be in Bangkok and then think about the lack of good ones nowadays, I get depressed. I'd settle for anything half as good as those old places. |
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#12
23rd July 2007, 10:40 AM
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Icon reminded me of Tulip bar in Soi Saladaeng.
My undertanding is also that it was the first off bar in Bangkok, maybe also first in Thailand. I have fond memories of this place, always had lots of nice friendly and sexy boys. Plus, I took a farang friend there maybe 22/23 years back, his first night in Bangkok. He fell in love that night, as did his new Thai sweetheart. Eventually the Thai man (very masculine young man, quiet, polite, very caring, and preferred men (farang men) went to Australia and they are still together and very happy. Great equal relationship, and they are now equal owners in a very successful Italian restaurant. |
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#13
23rd July 2007, 11:33 PM
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Scoops - Your replies read as though your memories extend farther back in time than mine do and that you were more adventurous than I was.
In general I remember being quite satisfied enough with the boyz who used to hang-around in the 'S'wongse.' hotel so that I didn't go-out at first all that often. I do realize that for us 'Oldies.' it's all too easy to look-back through the trad.'rose-tinted.' glasses. and to bemoan the customs, morals, prices and so on of today, but - that admission safely out of the way - I do feel that say 20+years ago life was LESS commerical and LESS competitive then: a definitely freer and easier atmosphere in the various a go-go bars and other similar places. Possibly the only bar in wch. I had one slight problem was 'My way.' - still in its same loc'n. just off Rama IV. rd. - where I was pestered to 'Off.' a boi and faced with no little annoyance when I didn't; but otherwise there seemed to me to be a MORE laid-back and let it all hang-out attitude: 'Sanookie dee!' Both in the 'S'wongse.' htl. and the 'Dairy Queen.', (now MacDo. in Robinson's at Rama IV.:Si Lom.), it was possible to help young boys with their homework and then in exchange ... ! Several times my TH. boi(s) would accompany me to Don Muang airport on my departure and I'd board with a big bunch of red roses! The other thing that I remember were the early morning 'smogs.' - quite often I'd get out of bed around 04hrs. to see-off my young friend returning whithersoever and there would be a smog in Si Lom rd. - possibly not quite of the Dickensian and/or Sherlock Holmes density but bad enough. Sadly, a few months ago I went-through my Address Book and removed all those old addresses of barc, clubs etc. long gone. The proverbial daze of wine and roses! 'bye.. |
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#14
24th July 2007, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
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#15
24th July 2007, 04:20 AM
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35 years ago , Silom Soi 4 :
Tomboy Lonely Boy Siamese Boy , later Apollo , later Rome Club later in Soi 4 Jasmin , belonged to Charley , a Chinese Thai , who also was as an actor in Good Morning Vietnam . He played the role of the teacher . Later he had a bar in Soi 2 , Charlies Hideaway . Rene http://net.clubs.nl/gayholidayinthailand
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