How young is too young to come out?
 

It amazes me how young and how public some people are coming out these days.

If you look on YouTube you will find guys 11 - 12 - 13 making the public announcement that they are gay.

Now I know the world is a very different place than when I grew up - these days with the anti-bullying campaigns and even middle schools have "gay - straight alliance" clubs -

But to me that just seems too young to be publicly making a statement. It is still an age of experimentation and to make a big declaration of "this is what I am for life" seems too much too soon.

I do know a lot of people "know" by that age - but the pressure from other students and family and society - I guess in my mind it seems to soon for a kid to have to deal with that.

What do you think?

When I was 11 back in the early 1970s my mother had me see a child psychologist. I'd been depressed, didn't fit in with other kids, didn't want (or really couldn't) be in school, and so on. Being military, we had moved between so many school systems, and I was what they then called a "bright kid" -- "gifted" now, perhaps -- and I never belonged. In second grade in one state they had me leave class to study reading with the fifth graders. In third grade in another state, they had me sit in the corner by myself and read and study on my own. And on and on...

Anyhow, the psychologist was called in when I started to give up on sixth grade. The one thing I especially remember about him is that he asked me if I'd seen "Cabaret" and what I thought about it. I told him I was too young to see it, of course, and didn't think about it further.

Looking back now, I realize that a lot of people knew I was gay before I could think about it myself. It took me even longer to accept it, growing up with Roman Catholic teachings and all that. But by 13 I knew I was attracted to the gym teacher; this was in yet another state. I realize now that he had a classic 1970s porn-star look including mustache, although I sure didn't know it at the time. We moved again, and there was another porny looking choir leader I liked. You can see the pattern.

I should move on, so much work to do... But I can say that it really took me years to accept being gay just in my own mind. For me, I guess I thought little about society and other people's opinions. Mainly I was dead set on deciding for myself who I was and what I would do. I was never one to conform or let others decide for me. So, when I wasn't ready, I wasn't ready. And when I was decided, I was all in and ready to go.

I think I was always an "edge case," an eccentric outlier, and always will be. For the kids today, sexuality is probably more fluid. Maybe they're gay today. Maybe next year they'll be bi or straight. I think of Anne Heche who was straight and then lesbian and then I-don't-know-what. Then I think of earlier Hollywood stars with similar relationships with both sexes, but who kept it secret. (Speaking of "Cabaret," how about Liza's father Vincente Minelli...?) For these kids, maybe they, too, will simply do whatever, and in many places they have the freedom for that. In many other places they do not.

It would be interesting to follow up on how these kids see themselves 5, 10, 15, even 20 years from now. You never know.

Its all based on the person. I'll share my story:
My friend almost fucked me when we were kids (I was 8 he was 10) because I teased him by wearing short shorts and (seductively) smiling at him. He took me to the back of my house, laid me on the floor, undid my shorts, and took out his cock. I was too scared of getting caught, so I didn't let him fuck me.

Now (at 26) I have sex with older men at adult theaters and the truckstop and motel that are next to that adult theater. As much as I love men fucking me and sucking their cock, I've never came out.

I don't think 'coming out' should be overly emphasized without experimenting first. The reason why kids are 'coming out' now a days is because the media makes it a big deal. Also, the media makes it seem as if everybody has to know a person's sexuality; when really, its nobodies business.

Your friend was a lot braver than I was as a kid. I always hinted at things but I tried to get the other guy to make the first move... So there were lots of situations where I chickened out and probably missed out on some fun....





I very much agree. You see kids "coming out" who have never done anything - yeah some may "just know" they only like guys - but some of them may just be curious. I think some youthful experimentation with a buddy the same age is very helpful and gives the guys a better idea if they really are gay or not.

And once you have gone public like that on the internet there is no going back -

The notion that anyone at any age should be telling everybody else about his sexual orientation is mostly a political, and lately a marketing/commercial matter. An openly gay guy is more likely to vote for a specific party, get engaged in pro-gay equality political agenda. He will be probably buying a specific underwear, drinking specific drinks, and saving up to buy a specific car, to mention the few.

On a personal level, being out is often experienced as a great act of 'liberation'. Yup, you can introduce your current BF as such, or your present hook-up as such, too. However, this is where the personal benefit stops. The notion that you would be more 'popular' among other guys just because you are openly gay is a common fallacy. You may be openly gay all you want. If this other dude does not find you attractive enough, not much will happen anyway. And being openly gay may scare a few interested guys away, simply because they do not wish to be guilty by association or even seen as publicly associating with openly gay men.

For many people who are living their lives on social media sites, telling everybody everything about themselves seems to be a total must. Now, with so many people sharing virtually everything with everybody else, the value of such shared information has decreased very significantly. I doubt that anyone really takes this seriously anymore, especially if it is coming from a 12 year old...

KD

VERY true.

I know, especially when younger, there were some guys that were not openly gay but were very effeminate - and all of us avoided them due to that "guilt by association" - we figured if we hung out with them everyone would assume we were gay as well. The sad thing is not all of them were gay - but still just because of the way they acted or what they enjoyed they got stereotyped.

To make the matters worse in this context, hanging out, or even being 'friends' with someone who is being perceived as gay or is openly gay, may scratch a dude's perfect str8 image with no benefit to him whatsoever.

You come across guys who, while not too comfortable with their escapades into the word of m2m sex, understand that there may be a societal price of some sort of ostracism if their affairs become known. Yet, they take this risk, because there is a reward for them there: they are getting their rocks off. Now, just hanging out with someone, and not getting much in return for being seen as 'not totally str8' is a less desirable option.

Fortunately, things have changed a lot recently. A number of str8 guys have gay friends, since the stigma attached to being gay is largely gone. But for the less liberal minded, small-town folks, the risk is unwelcome even these days.

KD

Although I never had the luck you do hear tales of the star of the football team that had a sex buddy or some such set up. When I was a kid it would have been "guilt by association" - you did not hang out with the gay guys, or the druggies, etc and if you did other kids and parents would assume you were involved as well. The only group you could hang out with and not be part of were the jocks - but that is because it was assumed that "everyone wants to be a jock".

With my buddies I fooled around with there was no talk of romance or love - we kept it on a physical level - it was a need -we never wanted to address the fact it was also a desire.






Things have changed dramatically. When I was a kid you would have avoided they gay kid. Now there would be pressure NOT to ostracize someone just because he is gay.

However as KewlDewd stated previously - I don't understand why it is anyone business.

And some of these kids "coming out" on youtube or the like - some of them have not even hit puberty or have never had sex. And for them to be publicly stating they are gay - that is putting a life label on them way to young.

There were lots of guys that fooled around with other guys in their teens that eventually moved on to women - got married - had children - and many of them are very happy straight men - despite their youthful playing around.

It seems like today there is almost to much pressure to "accept who you are" and not accept that these are still kids trying to figure out who they are and maybe they are just trying different things as they work on learning who and what they will be as adults.

I am also wondering about the tales or urban legends of a star athlete having a FB who happens to be your usual HS kid - neither a real jock nor a real geek nor a real nerd, but more like a mix of them all.

IMHE, the jock dudes usually kept to ourselves. You were other the team member of you were not. The admirers were usually viewed favorably, but the behind the locked doors action was usually between the two jocks who belonged to their own coterie.

Yup. I agree, only one dude, I knew admitted it was a desire, too. To me, the element of desire was simply too obvious, and it may have been obvious to the others, too. But talking about it, was just not in the cards.


I also believe that a big majority of the dudes we used to mess around with chose to live st8 lives. There is no way for anyone to know if some of them chose to have other relationships on the side. At least a couple of my now married-with-kids apparently str8 guys jumped on the opportunity to have sex with me again, away from their families at your typical convention hotels. Again, this was invariably one of those, one-thing-led-to-another, and for the sake of good ole' times thing. We never spoke about it. But we did joke about the old times, and the dudes we used to know, and the things that were going on behind the locked doors.

KD

I suspect it is more urban legend than reality - but it sure made for great fantasy and an even better plot for gay porn films! ;)




There were so many cases where one or the other of us "just happened" to have a new porn mag when we saw each other - and so often comments like "damn I wish there was a chick here" or "I wish my girlfriend would put out like that" would be responded with "well there aren't any girls here" ... the excitement, the enthusiasm and the frequency it happened made it very clear - we both loved cock - but would never admit it out loud.

I often wonder which I was more afraid of - admitting to him that I liked it or admitting it to myself.




"chose to live st8 lives" is a good way to put it.

The idea of being gay was not an easy option when we were kids. Although everyone knew about it they still mostly considered it a "sickness" and in MANY states right until the 80's it was technically illegal.

There were some guys that you knew were just doing it because they were horny and it was the only option - a one time or maybe a summer thing.

Others that were clearly bi - they fooled around a lot with guys but once the girls started putting out they lost interest or only did it when drinking....

And I know one guy I played around with who is now married with children who has told me if he grew up today he would probably be gay.

A lot of these guys live their "str8" lives - many of them even being completely faithful - but then they get online and spend the late night alone jacking off to gay porn.

And others when they are away on a business trip where no one knows them figure they can have a one night fling without being worried about getting caught....

We used to have a slightly different angle here. Yup, nominally, ALL the dudes were hoping that they will soon find a GF, AND that the new GF will be more understanding of their, ehm, raging needs. This was a general narrative that hardly anyone thought should be voiced.

In the meantime, almost everyone was somehow in-between the GFs, or was having a GF who would not go far enough to please her man.

No one would spend much time dwelling on these issues either. You buddied up with your 'guys', and you took care of the business at hand. You did the deed, but you did not talk much about it. Unless, there was a salacious detail that would make the other guy(s) laugh.

These were your college days, and you were enjoying your freedom. You were going to get married, have children, etc., so you were going to be totally str8 afterwards anyway, when it kinda mattered.



When we started messing around with each other, nearly everyone was sure that this was a 'one off thing' or maybe a 'two offs thing'. So, it was all fun and games in the beginning. Few guys had the wisdom at that early stage in life that we ARE creatures of habit. By the time we hit our soph year, the bragging about the girls stopped. The tops topped, the bottoms bottomed, and fun was had by all. Even the guys who occasionally scored with their new GFs kept coming for more. Mostly because they needed more than the GF was willing to give, and probably because it was easier to get your rocks off with your buddy, like you did so many times in the past. Some dudes also claimed that they were not going to marry their present GFs anyway, so the sex they were getting on the side did not really matter.

By the time we were supposed to graduate, most guys already knew the lay of land ahead of them.

Some chose to go for the str8 option. Gay lifestyle was never their choice. The pressure of their families and friends was mounting, and frankly, they did not want to be viewed as freaks.

Few guys chose to stay 'eternal bachelors', and play the field. They started working on their Casanova images, insisting how they were keen on having fun but were not interested in getting married and raising children, now that they got good jobs, careers, and were deemed so attractive by the available ladies. Some of this was just posturing. Those dudes still sought sex with other men but stayed in deep closets.

Very few guys, went openly gay, found a BF or played the field. Most of us moved away, started our lives and careers in different towns or even in different countries. The new anonymity, changing attitudes, etc., all helped.

I have had relatively few contacts with my old buddies. One of the 'str8 guys who was still happy to go gay for a night at the convention hotel insisted that he had made the right choice. He was having a wonderful son, loving wife, and a good career, all of which he somehow rooted in his decision to go 'str8', and leave the fun and games of the past, well, to his past. I could see his valid point to some extent.

The rest of the 'str8' buddies went through the usual divorce, got re-married, and some divorced again. Their lives were absorbed by their alimony payments, legal expenses and lacklustre careers. I hear that some are still playing on the side, if the opportunity presents itself.

The very few dudes who went for the gay option fared a bit better. The two of them have had noticeable careers. Their private life reminds you of the usual gay life sagas. One ended with an apparent BF for life, and the other one is still 'looking'.

I have been putting very little effort in trying to revive the old college friendships. Life is pretty good as it is, and re-connecting with people who live thousands of miles apart in very different environments, while coping with different and possibly difficult issues does not sound like too attractive of an idea.

KD

'Coming out' on the internet is not that big of a deal; unless, of course, you use your real name and make it easy for friends and family to find.

I think experimentation is a much bigger and more important process than 'coming out' on the internet. Usually, the internet is filled with people who fantasize about a certain thing, but never actually do it.

Once you venture into same-sex experimentation, you have to make sure you want to do it. Even during the younger years.

Related but not quite the same, I read a news story this morning about reactions and fallout from the Ashley Madison hack. I posted that link to Facebook with this comment:

This is apropos to gay sites and apps including here on CFS. Yesterday I had a request to delete someone's profile because their username had come up in a Google search.

The CFS member profiles are not supposed to be indexed by Google or other search engines because of some back-end programming. This particular member's profile was not on Google, but a reply he made in a Message Board discussion did appear. To reiterate, posts on the Message Board, the Sex Listings, the Personals (Communal Stall) and the AdoptASexPig site do get indexed.

Thus, the usernames here do appear. We (moderators and I) try to edit Message Board posts to delete email addresses and contact info, and I do the same with the Sex Listings. However, your username is going to be out there.

About the Personals, the posts there "expire" after a certain time and I've followed a "use at your own discretion" policy there, letting people post what they want while suggesting they use common sense about contact information. The Pig site, meanwhile, was a pet project of Keith's from about 2005 onward; it gets little traffic these days and I may repurpose it at some point.

To get back on topic, there's an awful lot of people who have what we might call "multiple identities" or "multiple behaviors" but who simply don't use common sense when posting on the Internet or talking about their sexual selves. Many are too trusting of the security of random sites, others don't think about the idea that what they post now might be captured and re-posted elsewhere, even if they delete it. It's not just politicians and celebrities who learn this lesson to their dismay.

Now on to work, busy day ahead. ~ Bob

NYT just published this article which actually says it all:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/20/op...heat.html?_r=0

KD

It is amazing with the ease of creating a unique e-mail address that people would sign up for that site - or any sex site - with their standard name and e-mail address.

I know early on I created a hotmail address for use on gay websites as even at my age I still see no reason for the whole world to know who I want to have sex with.

Now, this is where your reflexes kicked in. (And mine, too.)

At the time when you and I started messing around with the guys, this was a 'no-do'. Sure, people did it nonetheless, but we also spent quite some time and energy to make sure that we do not get caught:D. They say that necessity is mother of invention, right?

Most other dudes never needed to develop such reflexes. Their experience told them that they were the 'golden' boys, the mainstream. No matter what they did sexually, it was OK. This was something they were boasting about in the sports bar anyway...

So, they have never been on the run. Actually, they even do not know how it is to be on the run. Until one day, the sky comes falling on them...

KD

About straight men who chase women some did actually make an effort to cover their tracks while others did have that sort of hubris. Think of Gary Hart, who essentially dared the press to find evidence of his affair.

Other prominent ostensibly straight celebrities got a sort of "free pass" in Hollywood if they played the game and took a girlfriend ("beard") to dates, parties, galas, etc., and she might have been lesbian or bisexual, too. It's really fascinating how many Hollywood people were what we now would call bi, although that label would seem odd to them and in their context to me, too. They simply lived their lives and loved and played with whoever they wanted to.

Similarly, straight politicians used to get a "free pass" on their affairs although sometimes there was gossip, i.e., "FDR had a girlfriend and Eleanor did, too." or the talk about JFK and Marilyn, not to mention Joe Kennedy and Gloria Swanson. You didn't get to know about the gay or MSM politicians until there was a fire at DC's Follies or someone set out to expose them.

Still, the full extent of these guys' infidelities was usually not made public -- even if known to journalists -- unless it involved something egregious or a matter of state. King Edward and Wallis Warfield Simpson were a lot more important than Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles, although the latter couple were (and are) in the current "age of no secrets."

The thing is, these days anything anyone does potentially can be made public. The public at large may not care, but some spouse or significant other might. So many people share passwords with their S/O or leave their phone sitting around for the S/O to look at. Anyone who does that should not be surprised at whatever happens.

Wikipedia says that Ashley Madison had stunning 39 Mio clients worldwide. No doubt, a few, even quite a few men (out of the mind-boggling 39 Mio.) may have tried their best to hide their identities. Judging by the recent press coverage, very, very few actually did. We can talk about the case of universal hubris here.

I imagine that most adults pretty much tend to run their affairs within certain parameters of an established pattern of behavior. Say, I am a gay guy out and about. I do not fly the rainbow flag, and do not go around telling people who I barely know that I am gay. Yet, if I meet a guy I am interested in, I'd give him my private cell, and not the one I use for business. Actually, there is little or no reason for this. But, this would be an automatic reaction probably originating in the times when we used to have P.O.B. addresses in order to make sure that no one gets our possibly compromising mail, porn mags, VHS cassettes with gay porn on it, etc.

There has always been a sort of an unspoken and unwritten but very much respected non-aggression pact between the press corps on one side, and the prominent members of the Hollywood elite and political establishment on the other side. All parties understood only too soon and too well that they have been living pretty well off each other's endeavors. So, everyone drew a certain line which no one really wanted to cross. Doing so would have been both counterproductive and damaging to the common, system maintenance related cause.

This chummy relationship was really made possible by the fact that the media used to be controlled by a limited number of people who all largely agreed to play by a certain rulebook.

The universal access to the web, and the uncontrollable flow of information have changed all of this. The age of no secrets, as you have rightly named it here, seems to be doing well, and is showing no signs of going anywhere any time soon.

KD

Part of me is constantly stunned and amazed by how ignorant people are of how the Internet works and that what you put out there may stay out there, even if you delete it or have it deleted for you.

And of course, part of me is never, ever amazed at all about the ignorance of people and what they think they can make "go away" once they've said it or written it or posted it or tweeted it.

It amazes me how many times you see pictures - clearly guys in a college dorm or some such set up - naked - hard and showing their face.

As you say - those pictures will exist somewhere forever. And even if you did not post it with your name - somewhere - someday - somehow - someone will recognize you.

It is like these guys think no one will ever know - and these days one of the first things HR people do when you interview for a job is "google" you - and if the first results are your dick pic or you face down drunk at a party - that is not going to help your chances.

I love looking at all the pictures - but I like to think if we had digital cameras and the Internet when I was in college I at least would have made sure not to have my face and dick in the same picture!

Maybe a time is coming in the not-so-distant future when virtually everyone's dicks or boobs or sex tapes or whatever will be available on the Internet, just like looking up their phone number used to be back in the day. (I'm sorry that I cannot type this in a way that conveys the ironic/amused/not-quite-snarky tone of voice in my mind, and emoticons don't quite do the trick...)

I believe that most guys do know. Sure, a few folks out there are patently dumb but the majority should know better.

I see Infopop's point, too. If very many people do it, then it becomes a sort of default to be expected, and lived with if not always approved of.

On some level, this may be the majority's backlash at the idea that employers should be allowed to control our private lives.

My old folks who used to run a sizeable business of their own in their time and day used to say, 'if you do not let the kid to run wild while at college and/or while young, he'd go wild on you when he starts working and has his family to support - a much worse of an option.

KD

It would be fun - be able to see myself in my "prime" - or maybe it would just make me feel old!

We did take Polaroids a few times - but always quickly destroyed them as they were to easy to be found. Would have been a lot easier in the age of digital photography!

I just find it funny to see guys that would probably freak out at the idea of using open showers in the dorm but yet will post a cock picture on the Internet.