Lex: Groovy posts but you're probably wasting your breath if you think Sun is going to reply in any substantial way. Under the Immoderator`s Code of Etiquette it's okay to dismiss someone with "blah blah blah" or characterize them as "neo-Marxist" but not okay to, um, call them names. Perhaps, one day, Horndoggy will address this odd policy.

from Sun, to me:
>>The reason why we have a Sexual Politics Forum is because we no longer need to post in the Sex Advice Forum. The moderator of this forum, unlike the moderator for the 'other' forum, does not censure our postings to silence unpopular disent and disagreement with 'his' point of view. The moderator of this forum has been very fair and has not attempted to silence us. >>

Um, where have you been? He has deleted posts, locked threads and generally attempted to redirect conversation when it took natural turns toward different subjects. Are you really present, Sun? Do you have ANY interest in reality? I¨m beginning to think you really ARE a south Fla. senior citizen, half-asleep with early Alzheimer´s, a libertarian brochure on your lap. Yo! What color are you today? Yo! Who´s that kid you´re mentoring! YO!

By the way, it´s a matter of record that Bush was going to close Sandy Thurman's AIDS office. I`m glad he's had second thoughts but I seriously doubt it´ll amount to more than an empty gesture.
______________

Sorry for the multiple postings...I don´t have access throghout the day to the internet. I¨m in Europe for a month, where I might add, anti-American sentiment seems at a record high in recent years.

The Christian right may claim they "own" George Bush but they are locked in. There's nowhere for them to go. Bush is in trouble these days! His approval numbers are going down and his disapproval numbers are going up. He has to find support among constituencies that have not supported him him the past.

It sounds like the Bush administration found out that there are moe right wing gays than they thought there were. This information comes from polls and surveys, even though Bush denies using them. Apparently the right wing is not monolithic.

Still, I hear that right wingers want to amend the pledge of allegiance to read: "one nation, heterosexual, Engish-speaking, with liberty and justice for those who can afford it."

Hope you're having a great time in Europe, Bongo!

Sundogg~

WHAT-ever. As if. Talk to the hand.

now that i'm thru emulating your glib dismissiveness, if you will remember (your memory has always been selective, granted)that during the looong Bush V.Gore thread that thrived throughout the election fiasco, i repeeatedly said i thought Clinton's handling of Don't Ask Don't Tell to be ham-handed, and that he tended to shoot himself in the foot everytime he did something productive. I was pissed at him more than most conservatives, because he put Democrats in the position of having to defend some of his indefensible actions.

Clinton's out of office now; he can never darken your little doorstep again. how about revealing some reasons why I or any other Gay person should support Dubya's policies instead of going back to the bugaboos of the past.

betcha can't....maybe one of your other personae can help you out.

[This message has been edited by swallowme (edited April 10, 2001).]

The games are clearly over, Sun.

You have been called on the carpet by several INDIVIDUALS here who see right through your baiting and your masquerades.

Time to pack your bags and go play "genius" somewhere else. Your pretentious, smug superiority cannot hide the truth. You have used these message boards, by your own admission, to play cat & mouse games with people who were trying to make genuine contributions.

It was inevitable that such obnoxious game-playing would result in alienating people from you.

This has NOT been fun.

Swallow:
>>Sundogg~
WHAT-ever. As if. Talk to the hand. >>

Dewd!

Jake:
>>The games are clearly over, Sun.
You have been called on the carpet by several INDIVIDUALS here who see right >>
through your baiting and your masquerades.>>

If only. This has happened numerous times. People get fed up, Sun goes to sleep for a while, or resurrects himself under a new handle, and then comes out foaming at the mouth again, brandishing a pistol that he inevitably fires at his own foot.

Lex:
>>Hope you're having a great time in Europe, Bongo!>>

These southern Europeans have no shame, no decency, no morals, no self-restraint. God, I love them.




[This message has been edited by bongo (edited April 11, 2001).]

I am looking to improve my understanding of an issue raised here, namely, that the queer left regards ordinary gays with disdain. Several posters have defended the right of "ordinary" gays to live quiet, unassuming, normal lives. We are told that the queer left despises ordinary gays and advocates a radical and confrontational lifestyle.

Can somebody direct my research here? I've read some queer theory and I know about the calls for confrontation. But I don't believe that radical queers despise ordinary people. (If they do, they shouldn't!)

Can anyone supply me the name of a writer who illuminates this topic? I am looking for information --it doesn't have to be the final word. (Resolved: that gays already fit in, but radical leftists are stirring things up for the sake of their own individual careers)

Well, I'm not qualified enough in Queer Studies to be abel to refer you to anyone in particular. but i do want to point out that though by the skewed standards used as a reference point today, I would be considered to the left of center. however, the consensus has been pushed further and further to the right since WWII.(need I remind anyone that the U.S. was thisclose to revolution/socialism at the height of the Great Depression, with only FDR's(AND Eleanor's)skill enabling us to avoid bloody class warfare?)so what is now considered left by the media is in fact pretty centrists when viewed in a global political perspective.

and I AM ordinary! I work 10 hour days, 6 days a week, and still scrape by trying to keep up a house that my now deceased partnere and I bought when we were a 2 income household. but I digress. the point being, just because someone is liberal or left does NOT make them "un-ordinary".

Posted by Dwight:
"Can somebody direct my research here? I've read some queer theory and I know about the calls for confrontation. But I don't believe that radical queers despise ordinary people. (If they do, they shouldn't!)

Can anyone supply me the name of a writer who illuminates this topic?"

Michael Warner's "THE TROUBLE WITH NORMAL" and Michael Bronski's "THE PLEASURE PRINCIPLE."

Dwight: The idea that "radical" gays (like members of Sex Panic, who essentially advocate nothing more than this board advocates)despise¨"ordinary" gays is just classist argumentation. Sun might as well be talking about a "queer moral majority." It´s a polemical fiction.

I second Warner´s and Bronski´s books, though I think Warner´s is better and certainly more grounded in queer theory. Warner is an important queer theorist because he attempts to reconcile queer theory´s disassembly of identity to the very real-life need for political action.

I´ll try to explain. Queer theory -- a la Judith Butler and Eve SEdgwick -- argues that gender and sexual identity are cultural expressions of performativity, the reiteration of certain markers (like dress, gesture, etc.). QT wants to sabotage those gestures, or in the pomo spirit, to displace them, to¨"play" in the Derridean sense, if you know his work.

This is the difference in¨"queer" and "gay". Queer plays with gender and identity, whereas gay is a pretty fixed identity based on the assumption that sexual orientation is stable, likely biologically programmed. One common expression of the problem this difference causes is when gay people argue that trangendered and bisexual people should not be included in "their" movement. To "queers," anyone playing with gender and orientation is welcome, including straight people (and, frankly, I meet a lot queerer straight people than gay people often times these days).

Of course, if you destabilize gay identity, you likewise make it very difficult to form a cohesive political movement. Warner attempts in his work to address this problem.

The idea that "queer theory" is some kind of politically radical gobbledegook is bullshit. It´s difficult because it is rather radical in the way it contextualizes gender and sex and has had to create a new vocabulary to express the novelty of its ideas. Some of Warner´s most interesting comments are on the way queer theory is excluded by current media. This, he says, is because it really has the potential to make a big differnce in the way we see ourselves -- meaning,f or one thing, that we might begin to realize "gay" has become basically a marketing word. Gay media are not going to jeopardize their position by questioning identity-based politics.

Short course.

I should give credit where credit is due. It was BONGO who originally recommended Warner's "THE TROUBLE WITH NORMAL" to me. I took his advice, and I purchased it right after his recommendation.

Well, I could not put it down once I started reading it! I stayed up the entire night and read the whole thing in one sitting. It is a powerful and very straightforward piece of literature. It cuts right to the core of things.

Thanks, bongo!

A QUESTION:
How did SunDogg suddenly become
"IGF
Mbr2000469"
on posts ORIGINALLY posted with his SunDogg handle??? On certain posts you even see the new name listed with the OLD (this has been edited by SunDogg) at the bottom. His original "SunDogg" location has also changed from JUPITER, Florida to PLANTATION, Florida.

IGF Mbr2000469
Cruiser
Member # 38907
Member Rated:

posted April 09, 2001 01:22 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here Dwight...fetch!
The Whitehouse announced today that Scott Evertz, an 'openly' gay Log Cabin Republican (so sorry ...Gay Stonewall Demos), has been nominated to head the newly reorganized Whitehouse AIDS Office. He will also become a member of the Whitehouse Domestic Policy Council.

Whoosh! The sound made by knee-jerk reactionary Neo-Marxists on the Extreme Left when deprived of O2.

[This message has been edited by SunDogg (edited April 09, 2001).]


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have noticed similar changes on a select few other cruiser's old posts. However, my info and handle remain consistent (along with the handle of many others) on my old posts.

What gives?

[ April 14, 2001: Message edited by: Jake2001 ]