Possible closing of gay saunas in Thailand
 

I think everyone should be aware that the gay activist - Khun Natee Teerarojanpongs, is still pushing to have all gay saunas in Thailand closed, to help stop the spread of HIV. Refer the following:-

http://bkkmindscape.blogspot.com/200...una-peril.html

and the follow-up:

http://bkkmindscape.blogspot.com/200...a-peril-2.html

-- I was unable to download either. :(
-- Bibi.. --

Very smart
 

Yes, very smart. He might as well call for closing all the bars (both Soi 4, Soi 2 and Soi Twillight), the parks, the shopping malls, the internett, the streets and all sorts of other places men meet for sexual encounters.

... oh I forgot
 

He must make sure that Malaysia Hotel closes down too.

reason saunas survived the first wave of panic in some western countries was that health officials and politicians recognized them as meeting places where aids education in the form of pamphlets and posters could reach the ignorant or those who did not define themselves as gay.some venues in melbourne australia even have testing for stds etc once a week (no pressure)

at babylon in the 90's posters were in place but now not so visible if at all.the other non-farang saunas i have visited did not even have token displays of safe-sex information,though i haven't been for some time.

what good do the campaigns do in 2008? i do not know but saunas unfortunately will be always be under scrutiny when hysteria breaks out and at least they should appear to be responsible citizens as much as they can.condoms,hygiene and some advice is the starting point still.

our own responsibility is paramount but any chronc cruiser knows human nature takes over without regard to consequences at times.

i know this is old hat...to some.

Very little, according to the increasingly alarming statistics. But let's not forget it was only a few years ago when Babylon was raided and a senior government or police officer showed a used condom as evidence that sexual activity was taking place there! If senior officials don't know about the importance of condoms, what chance does the rest of the populations have?

Let's not forget, too, that in the USA saunas were closed in the 1980's soon after the extent of the HIV epidemic was discovered - and that rates in the US began to fall thereafter. (Granted that's a simplified conclusion - but closure of the saunas did contribute).

I believe two factors will prod the government to take some sort of action. 1. escalating healthcare costs for the increasing numbers of HIV/AIDS paients. 2. the government's desire to promote the country's image as a family tourist destination.

Only a major and sustained effort by the saunas actively to promote safe sex is likely to get the blessing of Khun Natee who, let's also not forget, has done more than almost anyone to promote gay issues and acceptance in Thailand.

Natee on Thai Television tonight
 

Actually Natee was on Thai television this evening, around 5.45pm, talking about the same subject - he had a masked HIV patient with him, who claimed he had caught HIV in a sauna, and a Thai lady from a hospice in Chiang Mai. He said that the police seem not to want to do anything about the problem, because they are getting paybacks from the saunas, and therefore it is up to the health department now to do something about the problem. I am sure it will be mentioned in the Thai newspapers tomorrow!!

If this young man has only ever had unprotected sex in saunas, then he may be telling the truth. Otherwise it's pure speculation. But spreading this sort of alarm will do no-one any good. Far better if the sauna owners would just actively promote safe sex through poster, flyers and having condoms available on their premises.

-- Possibly owners and mngrs. etc. of saunas and other such places where M2M. and penetrative s*x may occur should be advised quite firmly -
- 'Have free condoms & lube. available at all times and for all; actively promote SAFE S*X - or else face CLOSURE!'
- This means fewer dinky, little and arty-f*rty posters, (such as one sees in B*BYL*N SAUNA.), but the MORE American 'In your face.' type of promotion that will impinge!
-- Bibi.. --

The cock thinks the sun rises because he crows. ;-)

Rates fell because of greater public education, largely organized by gay men themselves, and because of scientific progress toward treatment, for which gay activists pushed incessantly.

Closing saunas can have little or no effect on HIV transmission rates, but can only eliminate the possibility of saunas' being venues for education. Yes, they should provide condoms, and the government should support their doing so. A gay activist, no matter how dedicated and experienced, who doesn't understand this is tragically misguided.

The problem with this cart before the horse theory (oops!) is that it took the US gay community and the bathhouse owners many years before anything was done about publicising the risk of unprotected sex.

If you read Randy Shilts' excellent history of the origins of HIV Aids "And The Band Played On", in Chapter 41 you'll see that bathhouse owners had deeply retrenched attitudes about co-operating with anyone. In 1984 when the facts about the virus were very clear, they even condemned the "uncaring and unscrupulous theocrats (who) have stooped to manipulate public fears about AIDS in order to serve their own private, political goals of eliminating first the gay baths, then the gay bars, then . . ."

But it was not only the religious right. Dr James Curran of the Centres for Disease Control said, "I wish the gay commuunity would officially express concern over bathhouses. I'd like to see all bathhouses go out of business . . Gay men need to know that if they're going to have promiscuous sex, they'll have a life expectancy of people in the developing world."

I grant you that eventually the bathhouse owners did come round to the need to actively promote AIDS awareness and safe sex - but only after thousands had died and huge numbers of bathhouses been forced to close.

Totally agree with you. However, as highlighted in my first post on this thread and well known by anyone who reads the newspapers here, there seem to be many within the government who do not know (perhaps "choose not to know" is a more appropriate description) the importance of promoting condom use within the gay community. Expecting the government to do anything is therefore meaningless at this stage.

I once read of politics being described as the art of the possible. I believe the same can be applied to fighting HIV AIDS in Thailand. There's little point saying "the government should do this" or "educational authorities should do that". The fact is that in a deeply conservative society like Thailand they just ain't going to do it - at least not until international media exposure threatens tourism.

Similarly, from my limited understanding of the way gay saunas are operated, owners are not going to co-operate in spreading the safe sex message - unless they see a threat to their livelihoods. This is partly the shock therapy I believe Khun Natee is now administering.

Finally, whilst again totally agreeing with your basic premise, stillthrobbing, I just do not believe we should stand on the sidelines mouthing worthy slogans while many dozens of gay saunas around the country catering mostly to young Thai guys in their late teens and twenties do nothing to prevent what seems to be a vast increase in unprotected sex. As we know, they are gambling with their lives. The question is: how, realistically and practically, do we get them to realise that?

-- In a somewhat bitter and twisted mood I find it strange that here we are in TH. trying to promote SAFE S*X and yet CFS. - if I look aright at some of the adverts. and sponsors - actively promote Bare backing/Raw s*x! 'A puzzlement.' :confused:
-- Bibi. --

Hadn't thought of that, sextile, and of course you're right. But it's not only cfs - hundreds of sites are springing up promoting bareback sex, and it is much more commonly requested now in chat rooms. It's as if no-one cares any more.

In my younger days I frequented saunas every week. I did not get HIV but what I often got was other diseases -- urinary infections and fungus -- curable but not pleasant

-- On a lighter note, Gentle Reader, you might care to look-at the flg Youtube advert., wch. highlights the advantage of having been a Boy Scout -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C8MN9F6_Mk4

- NB.: the above web-address concludes: ...F6_Mk4

-- The other and assoc'd. Youtubes shewn in the surrounds are worth watching, too.
-- Happy viewing. -- Bibi.. --

I WAS WRONG DEPARTMENT.

Babylon does have some safe-sex warnings.The wing located on the Banyan Tree side has a warning advertisment at the entrance to the wet area and upstairs in two locations are two posters artistically presenting some sobering statistics.

The placement of sheath and lube in the locker is also,in
a way, a reminder about safe-sex.

For those with earphones or able to download podcast this is an interesting discussion with an author on her angle about HIV.Entertaining as well as informative.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightli...08/2295039.htm

Possibly one thing we on this board can do is inform the owners of the various bars and saunas that they should post AIDS and HIV warnings prominently in their establishments. Quite a few of us are frequent patrons of these places and often known by the owners/managers and we should tell them that we will not return unless these warnings are posted.

As a further thought, why not get a group of us together, have some noticeable signs made up at our expense and give them to bar owners and managers to post prominently. I'm sure we have some pretty good designers who could come up with excellent posters.

I am presently out of the country, soon to return, but can contribute to this idea through friends currently in LOS!

In principle, I'd be happy to contribute. But I believe some form of dialogue is necessary with the bar owners beforehand to get their agreement.

However, more productive would be to do this with the sauna owners. I believe the bar boys are pretty clued in on the dangers of unsafe sex, whereas a large number of the younger Thais who patronise the saunas obviously are not. So it's not just signs that are needed but a plentiful and continuing supply of condoms.

Again the owners agreement would be needed and this might be a lot more tricky, but if the closing down threat is serious, then perhaps they'll listen.

My personal thought is that outsiders -- foreigners -- have no business getting involved. This is an issue for the Thais to work on themselves. My credo is "head down; fly under the radar". That is good advice for foreigners in Thailand, especially ones (like us) that occasionally get involved in the seamier side of things.

No matter where on the planet the best way of having an influence is making it known to a partner wishing to B.B that you have a safe only policy.For some it will sober them,others nothing will change their attitude.

Many times I am given the option,sometimes it is just playing around in advance i know,but without preaching I hope I reinforce the message.

A mature man's leadership cannot be underestimated.

-- In theory YES.
- But having seen farangs - in B*B*L*N SAUNA - becoming involved in unprotected, (bareback), s*x with Ths., and vice-versa, (some like it that way!), I'm not so sure. Plus I've had had farangs pointed-out to me in S*L*M C*MPL*X as paying only for unsafe s*x, too.
- As we farangs participate all too willingly with Ths. in certain aspects of our lives etc. shouldn't we become equally involved.
-- Bibi.. --

Everyone must take responsibility for one's own actions.

When a Thai and a farang have unsafe sex, the Thai is just as responsible as the farang.

As for possible efforts to lobby the Thai government to regulate gay saunas, I don't see any benefit to having foreigners getting involved.

I am not sure anyone in this post was suggesting that. It is Khun Natee who proposed it and this led to the discussion of how to get the safe sex message across to young Thais, massage parlour owners being seemingly reluctant to take any kind of lead.

I agree, icon513, but only to the point where both parties know exactly what they are getting into. There is plenty of evidence out there to show that rates of HIV AIDS amongst younger Thais is rapidly increasing. This leads me to believe that many Thais do not know that b-b-ing can be highly unsafe. That being the case, then surely foreigners who live here and enjoy the benefits of living here do indeed have a responsibility to do something to help ram home (no apology for the pun!) the safe sex message.

The rates are also going up among young farangs.

I just don't buy into the patronizing attitude that farangs are somehow better informed and should be more responsible than their Thai counterparts.

The fact is that there is just as much bb stuff going on in San Francisco as in Thailand. The situation is deteriorating everywhere.

Totally agree with the basic premise. But when the Thais themselves are doing virtually nothing, is it therefore incumbent on farangs just to sit back and also do nothing? With that I can not agree. I have had friends die from HIV Aids before the means of transmission was fully known. Now that we know all the facts of transmission, are we simply to stand aside and do nothing to try and prevent a further spread of this ghastly virus?

Tell your friends, tell your acquaintances, tell your sex partners.

But, if you know what's good for you, I'd strongly recommend against getting involved in any activist activities in Thailand.

I just do not see how any reasonable person can stand by and simply ignore what is going on re what is primarily a health education issue. Having a concern - and trying in a small way to do something about it - is not in my book 'activism'. At one extreme, it's a matter of self interest for all who engage in anonymous sex. At the other, it is trying to get across a message that will save lives, one that sauna owners care little about, seemingly. I fail to understand how this is not "good" for me.

Hi Icon,

I am always interested and respect your views on surviving in Thailand and am wondering exactly why you give the advice not to get involved.The reasons possibly may be an understanding of the sinister in law enforcement and beauracracy rather than transplanted farangs,who are always no more than guests here, annoyingly pontificating.Could you expand please.

Well, it all goes back to my "fly under the radar" credo.

If you thrust yourself into public view in Thailand, especially when it has to do with sensitive subject matter (gay saunas, gay sex, AIDS...), and when it has the potential of rubbing people the wrong way (the sauna owners, the police, politicians, who knows who else), it is just asking for trouble.

Upset the balance, piss off the wrong person, and you could end up deported and made persona non grata, in jail on some obscure charge you hadn't even thought of, or even dead. If you are just a tourist, or a retiree, you are even more vulnerable.

Do what you want, but I've seen a lot of farangs try to screw with the system and ending up regretting it.

As a resident for 14 years, I agree with Icon..

Icon's absolutely correct. There's a lot more going on behind the scenes that the farangs, and most Thais, will ever know.

A few 'know-it-all' farangs are not going to make a difference in Thailand. If anything, we'll only aggravate the situation and complicate things.

It's like the letters to the editor in the Bangkok Post. Some of it is drivel, some of it is spot on, some of it is dead wrong. But none of it makes any difference.

Politicians and policemen in Thailand have never said, "You know what? That farang is right. I outta take his advice" and made a change for the better. Mind you, there have been plenty of times when they could have and should have heeded the advice of others, from Thais and farangs.

But in Thailand, they only move on things when it's good for their pocket book, or when something hits them like a tsunami. Literally.

I have lived 30 years in Asia (a longer time than I expect many correspondents), and in general I entirely agree with the last 3 comments - "when in Rome etc." I also think farangs should be banned from writing to the English newspapers - or the editors sanctioned for including so many puerile and inane letters that appear almost daily.

However, there seems to be an understanding amongst correspondents to this thread that 'action' means doing something in the full glare of publicity. That clearly is madness. There are another ways, and these can include donations to HIV-AIDS charities or organisations that do something to try and get the safe sex message across to young people. As someone who has chosen to live here and been welcomed here, I feel I have a duty to do something - and not just turn my back and walk away. Call me a fool if you like - but like all of us, I have to live with my conscience.