Drove by TBT Wed. OUCH
 

I went for a drive past TBT yesterday, going north on Arrowhead I drove right past it. So at the next corner, I turned right, then right again, and once more another right, going around the block. As I made the last right, on the right side of the road, 1 block from TBT was a white mini-van with the left rear window knocked out of it, and the glass still lying in the road below it. As I passed the club, I noticed more broken glass in the middle of the side road very close to the gate that you enter at the rear of the club. oooookkkkkkkk the parking lot out back does appear to be pretty isolated from the street traffic. I didn't stop. There was 6 cars in the lot at 5:30 pm on a Wed.
I guess we all make our own choices. I made mine and kept going.

key to a sucessfull business:location,location,location
 

The guys that run this place are falsely kidding themselves!!! They foolishly think this place is going to flourish and that they are gradually building up a loyal clientele base.

I spoke with one of the owners over the phone who adamantly refused to reduce the admission. I couldn't convince him that when potential patrons see his parking lot nearly empty, they become discouraged and not interested in going there.

Located in a crappy, unsafe area, I just can't imagine this place as a success. My guess is they will go out of business within a year!!!

I recently heard that they just fired an employee for copying clients drivers licenses and passing the copies around the bar in the high desert. Beware !!!

Funny, all baths tend to be in bad areas.

I would not venture to the 1350 CLUB in Wilmington at night. That bad of a neighborhood! Do hit it once in a great while on their 1/2 price Wednesdays during the daylight hours, like a 11am to 3pm visit .... as I would never would go into that neighborhood at night.

Also had a friend who's car got broken into on the side street there at the 1350 CLUB at night ... window broken, his checkbook taken. He had to close that account and open a new one.

In the "Crime Report" section of the DAILY BREEZE newspaper I read that someone got shot in the back in that same block of the 1350 CLUB in Wilmington at night. No clue if it involved a patron of the 1350 CLUB.

Another friend's car got broken into on the street at the MIDTOWNE SPA, Downtown LA. Broke the window. Even took a pair of precription glasses (what good are they going to do anyone else??!!) from the glove box, popped open the trunk with the inside lever, with taking quite a bit of valuables from the trunk. Had an expensive watch in an overnight bag in the trunk, entire bag taken.

Roommate decided to stop at FLEX BATHS (Melrose/101 Freeway) one night. Their parking lot full so parked on the street.
Came out to find the passenger window broken out, set of expensive speakers taken from the vehicle.

Heard on a TV news report that the corner of Vineland Ave. and Burbank Blvd. had the highest crime rate in the Valley part of Los Angeles. 3 or 4 buildings from that corner is the NORTH HOLLYWOOD SPA.

If an employee from TBT did make copies of licenses (if given to a honest person isn't that person just going to toss it?) and was FIRED .... don't think anyone has to be warned of a "Beware !!!" anymore. "Beware" of what?? lol That was a bad employee got fired? isn't that a GOOD thing that they did get fired? Occassionally there can be a rotten apple any where.

The owner of TBT choose his location and has made up his pricing. Either the business is going to make it or not.

As a consumer you have the choice of going or not going. FLEX BATHS has a policy of "No Bags" ...I like to bring a bag to a baths with my flip-flops (do you really want your barefeet on that carpet and the showers/ steamroom/ sauna floors??), my lube, cockring, tanning lotion if using the sundeck, mouthrinse, bottled water when I get thristy, shave cream/razor if I need to shave, my shampoo, etc. Things to make my bath visit enjoyable for me. I have decided not to patron FLEX BATHS due to their policy of "No Bags".

this is so ridiculous, "he drove around the block and found a van with broken windows" give me a break, this place has a very well lit parking lot with cameras that are always monitored, well fenced with only one entrance, I dont even lock my doors on my car when i am there. You are going to a f_cking bath house, not church. These people are really trying to make this work for OUR benifit and fun, if you are going to make a big deal about 5 dollars more then L.A. then you should spend 20 in gas and go to L.A. I am sure you would not be much fun if you came in, you would spend all the time complaining and whining. I have been there 5-6 times and fucked and sucked till I couldn't take anymore and with some hot guys, so you go ahead and decide to go home and pull your pud, who cares,
and by the way; wed. night was the best since they opened
YOU MISSED IT!!!!!

one more thing, you were on your way to a bath house to have the most high risk sex you can have with men who have more different partners in a night then most have in a lifetime, your taking a chance of catching more diseases then I can list here,
and you want us to believe you were worried about how safe you felt walking from your car to the bath house.
oooooo kkkkkkkkk

I was only stating what I had observed. 1 block from TBT was a minivan with the window knocked out, with the glass still lying in the street below it. And I chose not to stop there. Not because I feared for my personal safety, which you assumed, because I sure didn't put that in my previous post, but because I was concerned about the possibility of my vehicle being vandalized.
Several years ago I was parked behind a gay bar, that was supposed to be secure. Security personnel and all, but I still had 3 of my tires slashed, and I was parked 4 stalls from the door.
You are correct about the parking lot. It does appear to be a secure place. But I still made my own choice not to stop, and I don't understand why anyone would criticize me for doing so.

Bathhouse Betty
 

I sounds like more time has been spent on this place then it deserves. I appreciate all the comments. I've been wanting to stop in. I've decided not to based on all the information.

For those that do go, PLEASE use the showers and SOAP. These places are a haven for atheletes foot, staph infections and hard telling what else.

Please be careful.

:mad: Ah, guess what the new sign on the inner door to TBT says?????

:(For sure I guess we won't be seeing cubmaster4u at TBT!:mad:

Can't you see how your negative comments about petty b.s causes people to not go. These people put up their life savings to try and build something in the Inland Empire that we did not have. They tried to make it clean and nice, for a bath house, they couldn't be more freindly and helpful to the customers. you have to understand they have to comply with San Bernardino's laws on requiring I.D. to rent rooms and for private clubs, they have to charge what they do to not totaly lose their shirts, (which I am sure is happening). If you guys are such experts in running bathhouses go down the street and open one, put your money where your mouth is. If not , stop talking this nickle and dime nonsense and let them try to make a go of this. There are alot of us that are really having a great time there and they are starting to build a very good and loyal clientiele. Its going to take awhile because we are more "bookstore" people out here, but that is starting to go to hell with raids and closings, so where you going to go next, bushes , parks? Its nice to feel safe in a place like this and not worry about being busted or getting your ass whipped, (that is, unless you want it whipped),(wink). If you don't want to go fine, but don't talk this shit and cost them business. And to the guy with the bag, they had problems with people bringing booze in and getting stupid, if you told them about your bag you would be fine , I have seen many people bringing them in, the management needed that option if they choose, again its laws.
Thanks

I stated the break-ins at the Los Angeles bathhouses just that bathhouses tend to end up in the lousy neighborhoods, not to put TBT down. I am all for TBT to be a success.

The only other bathhouse that I know that has opened up in the last couple decades has been one in Portland, Oregon recently. I understand the costs of set-up. Steam, sauna, showers, and whirpool aren't cheap.

3 or 4 times a year I go to the ROMAN HOLIDAY, their Venice Blvd location .... they a second location in Van Nuys. May hit the Van Nuys one once a year or so. Being a gay man I am quite aware of safe-sex. I can get-off just jacking-off with another guy.

I would have no problem if FLEX BATHS or TBT wanted to look into my bag first. I am one who prefers sex sober, so I wouldn't be bringing in a bottle of booze with me. I do throw in a bottle or two of Arrowhead Spring Waters from the refrig when I go, 17 or 18 cents a bottle when the case is on sale, as opposed to $1 or more in a vending machine. Bottles are sealed, if they made a big deal out of them I would simply leave them behind.

FLEX BATHS lost my business with their "NO BAGS" policy. Only went there once a year and haven't been back since the policy began. FLEX is a very, very tired club ...they haven't put a dime into it for years (paint worn from the walls, a few 1980s brown tiles have fallen out of showers replaced with white tiles, couple showers constantly dripping, sauna with 30 years of sweat stained into the wood and smells like such) though they get the crowds. Probably the busiest baths in Los Angeles, mainly do to being close to WeHo and Silverlake .... and right off of the Melrose exit of the 101 Freeway too.

I have an aunt in Lucerne Valley and thought the TBT could be an option for a stop on the way back home. Going to keep my eyes peeled here on the Message Board for continual reports on TBT.
Mainly intetrested in experiences, not those wanting something for nothing. For my vehicle it would be around $25 in gas from San Bernardino to either NORTH HOLLYWOOD SPA or ROMAN HOLIDAY, Van Nuys. So many of you would like to spend $25 in gas (plus commute time) as opposed to the $10 more for TBT than a LA baths to get in???

The report of "NO BAGS" at TBT is a major turn-off.

These forums are created to share information and allow personal viewpoints. I appreciate everyone's input. That's what it's here for. If I chose not to go somewhere because I decided to believe someone's comments, that's my business. Please don't harrass people like "whynot.." for giving their honest opion. That's what this is for. It's up to us to decide if we want to listen and how we interpret it. "Inlandempire" are you on payroll for this establishment?

As long as there is FREE SPEECH in this country, I will voice my opinion, no matter how worthless others think it is. And regardless of whether others like it or not.
Nuff said

you see I am a business owner also and I know what it takes to try and please the very fickle public, and like you said its free speech, or is that only for you not me. its my opinion that the things being said are BULLSHIT, thats my frre speech opinion, and no I am not on payroll, have you ever heard of doing the right thing, helping people that need help, trying to right a wrong, your way is speading rumors, gossip, hurting someone trying to make a living, I don't know, you tell me

Ironically, I never said that you shouldn't speak, however, that did seem to be the jist of your post concerning the information that I put here... that I shouldn't be saying it.
As for rumors and gossip... they tend to be unsubstantiaded info on a given subject, heard 2nd or 3rd hand and so on. the info that I posted was observed first hand by myself, so it certainly does not fall under the heading of rumors and gossip.
Understand this.. I would love to see this place do well.. I would really like to visit there sometime soon, and possibly often. But I would also like to feel that my vehicle is safe when parked in their lot. I am not worried about my personal safety, I can more than handle myself. I used to be a prison guard and little gang bangers do not bother me. However, they tend to be chicken shit enough to trash someones vehicle as opposed to confronting them face to face. If and when I feel comfortable about parking in their lot... count me in and I promise.. no whining once I am inside.

ok truce, in fact if i meet you out there I will suck your dick till you scream like a little girl, hows that? :)<

only if I can recip.

Re: "NO BAGS"
 

:confused: The handwritten sign to that effect was a little ambiqious, because below the "NO BAGS ALLOWED" it said in so many words: "All bags will be checked upon entering and exiting from the establishment" But as a matter of fact, the other night I went in with a shaving kit bag, which I mentioned to the clerk and no attention was paid to it either entering or exiting the club!

No problem having my bag checked.

Went to the ROMAN HOLIDAY, Venice Blvd location yesterday. 4 or 5 other guys had bags too. (yes, I did have a very "good time"!!).

By-the-way, to the thread of a baths not having that many cars in the lot. I went to MIDTOWNE SPA - AUSTIN while in Texas last May. A Monday night. Though 5 or 6 cars in the lot, I ended up having a great time, guess being a "new face" at the club. Some left, others checked in. Never was packed. A club doesn't have to be packed to have a good time. For me, can be just one encounter when not having had sex in awhile. 3 good encounters while there.

ROMAN HOLIDAY averaged 10-12 visitors from 12 noon to about 4:30pm yesterday (someone would leave, shortly someone new checked in) ... then dropped down to 4-5 visitors from 4:30 to 6:30p when I left. I ended up having 5 encounters on my visit. Got an hour up on the sundeck ... steam/sauna several times. By-pssed the whirlpool this visit. Long showers too.

I parked my car in the West Hollywood Post Office about a year ago at about 7pm (so the sun was still out) and it was stolen when I was on Santa Monica Boulevard shopping and going to the bank.
I came back about 30 minutes after parking it and it was gone.
Since the sherriffs station is right down the street, I went there to report it and they said it happens all the time, no matter where you park or what kind of car you drive.
It was found a week later stripped on a street in Carson.

No matter where you go, your car can be broken into. I have gone to New York City late at night and parked in some pretty bad areas, gone to Slammer (not the safest area especially if the lots are filled) MidTowne, 1350, Flex, etc. and never had any problems.

If they do have a parking lot at TBT, people should use that.

I do think the owners should install cameras and give discounts to locals so if they have friends visiting the area, they can bring them.

It is a neighborhood of the Damned and too damn expensive for what it is.Club 2200 at University ave. is on the East edge of Hillcrest you don't get more Gay Friendly than that Fo under $30.00 you get a room with a TV three channels of gay porn, Big TV Rooms , A Huge Steam Room , Sauna, Pool, and Jaccuzi the area has a strong police presents but is consentrates on bad guys, not hassaling patrons. A little smaller and even nicer is The Vulcan in the Little Italy section of San Diego the price of a room is under $20as far as parking goes I park in Mission Valleyand take the trolly to Little Italy The Vulcan is right down the street
(Maybe 50 ft) If you live in Elsinore, Murrietta, Temecula ,Hemet, Or The South Perris Valley You will spend less in Gas going to the SD baths as I live in Fallbrook it is a 45 min trip for me I think I'll head south for Head if you catch my meaning

Spike

this is the first reply in two years. no im not on the pay roll either.i've been there 4 times ,yes it was slow.if the guys were driving by, or around the block behind the others,and stoped, the parking lot, might of filled up.its not science,1, 2, 3 adds up.and goes for the price, i pay $25 at slammers for 8 hrs ,tbts $20 for 12 hrs, so were u getting its more out here,,, i know i go.by the way i do go to pudding stone hot tubs too, $25 for one hour, here $20 for twelve and use of spa, steam, videos weightroom, pooltableand even get a tan, and by the way ,if you go to tanning salon for one time u would pay$8 to 10 for under 30 minutes.and dont worry about your car,inCA its the law to have INC. let them worry about it....Worry about your dick!!!!THRASHIN

SPIKEDCHEZ..... where in the hell is HILLCREST ????

THRASHIN..... yes it is the law to have insurance, but you don't have to have FULL coverage which would be required in case of vandalism.

Hillcrest is in San Diego it is off the 163 from The inland Empire it is a straight ( if you'll excuse the term ) shot down the 15 when you get to the 163- 15 Y at Miramar take the 163 get off on University and you are in the heart of Hillcrest it is under an hour from Temecula depending on traffic. Hillcrest is to San Diego what Castro Street is to San Francisco. To get to Little Italy as I said I like to park in Mission Valley Qualcom Stadium Parking is safe Well lit and If there is not a Chargers or Aztec's game free from there you can catch the trolly, it stops like 50 ' from the Vulcan . Both the Vulcan and Club 2200 are 12 hours. The more I think about it the more I have to recomend The Vulcan The people are friendly you don't have to look like Brad Pitt to get laid the outdoor spa and sundeck are great and It is the cleanest bath house I've ever been to check it out
Spike

thrashin....
I have been to Slammer plenty of times and never paid $25.00 to get in for 8 hours.
You pay a membership fee of $16.00 for 5 months and it is $12.00 each time you visit (they take $3.00 off before 6pm on weekends and on Tuesday nights if you have a current gym card).
For out of towners or one-time visitors, it is $20.00 for admission.
Each time I have been there, it has been very busy.

LEATHER HARNESS, ARM BANDS ETC...
 

I was wondering if TBT allows you to wear leather harnesses, arm bands etc? Did anybody see guys wearing stuff when they were in the club?

You peops should stop all the bickering about the cost and location of TBT. Maybe you should try to appreciate the place since I really am not aware of that many other gay establishments in the whole IE. You guys have a couple bars and thats it. You whine over a lousy $5 or $10 more to get in. Whats $5 or 10 bucks these days. And if I'm not mistaking there are not too many "safe" areas in all of San Bernardino. I went there and the place really isn't that bad. It could use more clietele but that can happen if ya all stop your bitching and just go there and fuck and suck. Isn't that what it's all about? Parking lot has major flood lights in it and they have a camera on it all the time. And that one guy is right almost all bathhouses are in lousy hoods.

This is very true!!
 

You've got a point there! Where can you go these days and feel 100 percent safe?? Not too many places. I mean theres a certain amount of risk in everything we do! I mean we can't just sit around with our arms folded and be afraid of going out of our front door can we?? I mean even if we drive to L.A. we can risk being shot by a drive by shooter which to me driveing to L.A. is just like driving through a BIG PILE OF SHIT!! I feel alot more safer in San Bernardino than L.A. any day! Yes..theres lots to do in L.A. but by the time you fight through the traffic and all of the CRAP...half the day is OVER!!
I say it again...L.A. is a PIECE OF CRAP!!!

I, too, chuckle about the few "tight wads" I have heard on here regarding TBT.

$10 more than a LA baths, that's 3 beers with tip in a bar. Then with gas at $3 per gallon, 100+ miles down to San Diego and then 70 some into LA. Would cost me $25 in gas for my truck from San Bernardino to either ROMAN HOLIDAY, Van Nuys or to the NORTH HOLLYWOOD SPA. Then wasn't cheap the last time I went to N. HOLWD SPA either ...and I didn't have a very good time. Guy and I were beginning to play when he shot his load, excused himself then.

Then complaining TBT isn't packed, doesn't have to be packed to have a good time. Actually is less competition then. Dwindled down 3 or 4 of us in MIDTOWNE AUSTIN that late Monday evening I was visiting there, then I got the hottest kid that just checked in. That probably wouldn't have happened if he could have choosen from a dozen more there.

Another time checked in the ROMAN HOLIDAY, Venice location, one daytime. 3 or 4 of us were checked in .... got the hottest blow job from a guy.

i have been there---have you???
 

I must take umbrage with cubmaster. I recently visited this bath house on a sat nite (8pm-1am) and left extremely disappointed. $20.00 for a locker is a total rip-off! The arrangement and set up of this place is not conducive towards having sex. The so-called orgy room is pathetic whereas the glory hole stalls located in the halls saw zero action. The few hot studs that were there all seemed to know one another, many of them actually came in together and never parted. Did you know that they make a xerox copy of your drivers license??? I got the feeling that I was being followed around by two of the cashiers (possibly the owners), one of them greeted me by my first name, which I did not appreciate!!!!!

Some excellent advice to you lads would be to avoid this place!! If you reside in the inland empire or desert areas, it definitely would be worth the drive to los angeles/san diego to attend one of their respective sexual encounter venues.

I wonder if cubmaster has ever been inside of this place @ peak times and if so could he seriously recommend it??? I also remain curious to know why he always praises second and third rate bath houses, always ignoring what most guys would consider the very best i.e hollywood/north hollywood spa.

I'd greatly appreciate hearing from some guys that really like this place telling us---WHY

Okay, I don't go to FLEX as they have a "No Bags" policy. I like to take my bag with me: flip-flops, lube, etc., to make my visit more enjoyable.

What other "respectable venues" are you talking about?!!! I prefer baths over the sex clubs one keep your clothes on. I also am a fan of sauna, steam, and whirpools. Nudity. Then I prefer my sex in the privacy of my own room with the door closed.

The baths LA has are: HOLLYWOOD SPA, NORTH HOLLYWOOD SPA, FLEX, MIDTOWNE SPA, MELROSE SPA, 1350 CLUB, ROMAN HOLIDAY Van Nuys, ROMAN HOLIDAY Venice Blvd, and KYLT BATHHOUSE.

I go to the baths 4 or 5 times per year. I usually go to the ROMAN HOLIDAY, Venice Blvd. location as it is the closest to my home. I went at the beginning of last week and had a very good time. Then why would I go elsewhere?

I have not been to TBT yet, as not in my own neighborhood. All this boo-hooing over a few dollars more ...you paid $20 a locker?
What's FLEX? $15? That $5 ... then what for gas if someone was in San Bernardino drove to FLEX, and then back? That's my point. Sorry you twisted on what I was trying to say.

If you at Rosecrans/Crenshaw you paid for gas from here to San Bernardino, and back. I was refering to the boo-hooing from those in the area of the club vs gasoline.

I have an aunt in Lucerne, TBT would be an option for a stop on the way home. Wouldn't be MY PLAN to drive from Hermosa Beach to TBT and back. Choices are a good thing. You are right on one thing, I may hate the place. But I usually try to "make do" in most situations.

I get a great body feeling from taking a sauna, then a steam, a nice shower, a soak in the whirpool .... sex would be the "frosting" to such. Every visit to San Francisco I go to KABUKI SPRINGS AND SPA ... NOT a sexual venue, male nudity in the communal baths. Admission $18 weekdays, $20 evenings/ weekends. That's admission and a locker. Same amount for TBT and with TBT the addition to being a sex venue.

The both ROMAN HOLIDAYS don't even ask for ID (unless you look underage) .... many, many closeted guys like that as they can scribble any name onto the registration card.

Message Board is for the exchange of information: I, too, would NOT want a club to call me by name. Thanks for bringing that up. I never did like NORTH HOLLYWOOD SPA, FLEX, and 1350 CLUB to be copying my ID information onto their computers.
I was waiting for a review of the club, like you posted, as opposed to those complaining who thought the neighborhood was scray (what baths is in a good neighborhood?? San Diego ranks 12th in auto thiefs), and that $5 would break-ones-bank. Thank you for your honest review.

Crenshaw/Rosecrans....you are so negative not only on this post but all of your posts. I have been to TBT. I thought it was ok and would recommend to any one in that area. It just needs people to patronize it. It's still fairly new and in an area that's not known to have a large population of gay or bi's. But in my opinion a lot of rednecks. I understand that $20 is a large amount of money to some people......but I believe they have specials on certain nights so you can stop your whining about the high cost. It's a great place for the area it's in. It's in San Bern. for gods sake....LA it's not. Demographics! Demographics!

Reason...
 

The reason..WHY is this:
We're not disputing the fact that LA's spa's etc. would have better accomodations etc. In all probability this can be true given the fact that there are alot more concentrations of gay and bi guys in those areas...BUT..the fact of the matter is THIS! For inland empire and high desert guys it just is NOT PRACTICAL for us to drive so far through so much traffic and conjestion we can barely move or even find a parking place. Secondly..we DONT MAKE enough money to pay for ALL OF THE GAS to drive to Hollywood etc. Yes..its true it might be like a fantasy cum true...BUT the fact remains..high desert and inland empire guys CANNOT AFFORD TO DRIVE these long distances. Maybe if the gas prices go down you would see more guys driving out that way. This is just the way it is. So when something is available for us to use in our area we make the best of it. It may not be 100 percent what we would expect but its convenient for us to use because its close to our neighborhood...so we use it and make do with what we have. ;-)

dicgozinya...i'll assume you are not on the payroll nor have any invested financial interests in this place (lol). Please fill in your profile and tell me what sections of this so-called sexual venue you specifically liked or felt were ideal for sucking dick? Must the cashier make a xerox copy of your drivers license?? I'll refrain from stating what I disliked but would greatly appreciate it if you would state your favorable attributes regarding this place in the sexual arena. (weight room, billiards area and sofa area with large projection tv DO NOT count)

I laughed when you referred to this neighborhood as being 'redneck'. Realistically, it is mostly low income people predominantly hispanic. Parolees & probationers, aplenty. I received this info from a probation officer who is extremely familiar with this area.

I received three other e-mails fom persons claiming to have been there all corroborating what I stated, basically agreeing this place stinks--big time!!!

Criticizing sexual encounter establishments that I don't like on other threads is your idea of being 'negative'. I'll take that as a compliment!

I'll just say one last thing.....Usually when someone has such negative comments to say about a place it's probably because they didn't have fun. In the case of a sex club most likely didn't or couldn't get laid.

Was there last Saturday. . .
 

This is not a place I would repeat. The neighborhood isn't AS bad as had been depicted on here. It's actually adjacent to the university. A couple of bad blocks do not constitute a demilitarized zone. The staff is all right. The copying of my DL bugged me, but not terribly. The place was VERY slow and quiet, and the other men there were definitely no what I would consider good caliber. The 'sex room' is small and boring. No one uses the glory hole rooms. If the guy next door smokes, it's like he's right in your room - and I'm NOT usually smoke sensitive. The place could probably make strides of progress, but it IS kind of expensive, and I really felt like I was slumming.

How are they staying open??
 

Well..if they are as slow as everyone claims...how are they staying open??
They must be making some kind of profit to keep their doors open right?? I mean just a few people trickling in like that would hardly pay for their utility bill. Has ANYONE been there when it was fairly busy??
Maybe they need to make some modifications to attract more busness...what do you think?? Are there possibilities or no??

We've been complaining that we don't have a place like this out this way. I hope that enough of us can support them, so they don't end up shutting down. It might be more expensive, but I don't mind paying a little extra if I don't have to always drive into the city for this type of place.

Whether or not they can stay open, time will tell. I hope they can, and will fine tunr, or expand their facilities, making it more to our liking.

It's a start, and hopefully it might bring some competition.

Puhleeeze.
 

Is it time to close this thread?

I dont think this thread will ever close in my lifetime. lol! ;-)
But I do agree with sukoff..expanding the facilities and adding extras like a leather sling etc...is a very good idea! It will make it more fun and enjoyable for the guys! ;-)