Chevo,

That is all great news and good luck (though I don't think you need it).

BTW, there are two HIV viral load tests routinly ordered. The one my doc orders (HIV-1 RNA by PCR) is sensative down to 50 copies per mL and as I said, I am undetectable. One last bit of info. There can be unexplained "blips" in a persons vl. Thought to be caused by another viral infecton (cold, flu, etc) or an innoculation. But they are only noticed if the test is run during the blip. So it is still important to play safe.

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I can't help but think of the high state of anxiety Chevo must have went through after he learned the guy he was dating was HIV positive. Never mind the fact they had only kissed and nothing more progressed beyond that. But still, he and this other guy had a few dates before the other guy decided to tell him he was HIV positive.

We'll never know why the other guy withheld the information in the beginning, when they first dated. That's the kind of information that just doesn't slip a person's mind when you date someone the first time even if you don't have sexual activity together. You have to figure, after all, that passionate kissing on the first date could have led to sex itself. The fact they didn't have sex on the first date would be beside the point because the other guy withheld vital information about himself that had the potential to seriously impact the life of another person. I guess that is what really bothers me. It is also the reason why I always use protection and play safe.

It may seem unfair to the other guy who is HIV positive, but he did have an ethical obligation to inform Chevo of his HIV positive status in the beginning. Waiting until after they had dated a few times before he informed Chevo raises the issue of personal ethic in relationships. We don't often discuss this aspect of relationships and, when we do, it is usually after the fact and after something has gone wrong. In this particular case, the potential for something going wrong was certainly there.

The amount of anxiety Chevo has experienced is the price he must pay. This time he was lucky. But, the next time .... ??????

__________________
Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. And, under a just God, cannot long retain it.

-- Abraham Lincoln

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Chevo:

Will be eagerly awaiting the good news I know you will be able to share with us tomorrow!

Many thanks for the info you reported from TheBody. I have NO freaking idea WHEN the CDC determined the reported case of HIV from kissing has now been deemed inconclusive. That's very interesting, thanks for sharing it.

Funny... I frequently recommend folks go visit www.thebody.com , yet I haven't browsed the site in a long time myself. I used to do message boards with the doc that founded it.

There is some disagreement with regard to the classification of saliva as infectious and non-infectious. I take it the CDC's official position is that it is not. Others may have a different point of view.

Thanks much for the update.

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hey everyone! wow... I didn't expect so many replies to this!

About the ethical dilema of the HIV+ guy, I do think he should've told me. He DOES know it was wrong from his part and tried to explain he's point-of-view in this matter (even though I don't agree w/ it so much). We dated a few times, kissed a few times, hugged a few times and all but oral or anal sex never happened. To tell you the truth, this was what made me ask him, because he 'freaked out' everytime things got really hot.

I really like him and think he is such a beautiful person. Even though I get mad at what happened, I do understand him at some level and I don't ever want to be in his position. The thing is that, other than the anxiety part of the HIV situation, I was emotionally destroyed. I was really thinking about this guy as a potential lover, like a serious relationship. Actually, the first thing I did when he told me, wasn't freaking out... I started crying. It was like a slap on my face, telling me it was too good to be true. I do love this man, even though I've known him for one and a half month, but I feel it. It hurts to know that it will never happen, I'm just not prepared for this kind of relationship. On the other hand, I learned alot from this situation and instructed myself to this world that I knew nothing about.

The good news is, I just got the results from my test, it's negative(non-reactive)! The doctor says not to worry about coming in 3 months, I'm not considered as a high-risk contender, or even low risk, he said "extremely low actually." He said that just do the routin 6 month test in the summer and that he knows I'll be fine, that he "doubts I'll make history from this exposure."

Thanks everyone for your support and take care of yourselves! and you're all free to keep making comments and discussing!

__________________
laterz

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Now that you have gotten over the emotional hurdle, you can now begin to see things much clearer and objectively.

What this other guy did, from an ethical perspective, was wrong. He withheld vital information about himself that potentially could have fucked up your life. There is no way around this ethical issue. The very first time you and he dated obligated him to tell you he was HIV positive. If he had done that, you would have been informed about his health status that could have significantly impacted your own health and life. Remember, it was his ethical obligation to inform you.

In relationships, whether it is a single date or several, we do have an ethical obligation to inform the other person about such things as our HIV status. In some states, it is a crime for a HIV positive person to not inform a sexual partner of their HIV positive status. The issue here is informed consent. Concealing one's HIV positive status denies others of their right to be informed. If we take care of our ethical obligations first, there will be little or no need to address the legal obligations.

We don't always talk about our ethical obligations to each other, but you can be certain somebody is going to point out our legal obligations.

__________________
Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. And, under a just God, cannot long retain it.

-- Abraham Lincoln

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BMG, I doubt we will ever agree on what I am about to say, but I don't think an HIV+ individual is obligated to inform someone on the first date AS LONG AS THEY DON'T PARTICIPATE IN UNSAFE PRACTICES. What about herpes? Past sexual partners? Other health issues? What if you tell someone on a first date, before you really get to know them, and they go blabbing it all over the community, the internet, the employer, the family?

Yes, there is an obligation to inform a person before the relationship gets too deep or sexual. But sure as hell not on the first date, legally or morally. As you said, some states require you to tell a SEXUAL PARTNER, not a casual date.

My 2 cents.

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I agree sexual partners should be informed. But the rest of the world, no. Forcing a person to divulge info that is not necessary smacks of the same thinking that forced women to wear scarlet letters.

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This is a tough social problem for gay men on the sexual playing field, but we are getting better at it I think. Obviously, the young man did not disclose his status to Chevo because of the social stigma attached to HIV and the fear that he'd lose Chevo's interest, which, ultimately happened. It sure wasn't that he forgot about it. Being a peer of Chevo's, early 20's etc., he hasn't had enough life experience to deal with something so volatile in a morally sound way that's comfortable for him and his future partners. This is an issue that needs attention in our outreach and education to young people, poz or neg.

I don't agree that guys who are not engaging in any kind of sexual activity need to disclose their status. However, there's nothing wrong with asking the guy you're on a date with what his status is. That's part of risk management, we can only be responsible for ourselves so asking right up front is a good place to start with that. We need to keep in mind however, that a negative result is only good fromthe time the blood was drawn until the next sexual encounter you have. This moral dilemma can get even more complicated as a negative guy could tell his sex partner his last test was neg, but fail to tell him that three nights later he had unprotected intercourse. So, also asking if your parnter practices safe sex all the time is another question to add to the list as part of risk management.

This situation takes work for everyone involved. Guys who are positive need to find a way that they can disclose their status comfortably without fear of social outcast, and negative guys need to develop respect and have discretion for guys who disclose their positive status to them.

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I just want to say that I'm very pleased your test came back negative, Chevo. And I wanted to thank you for returning to keep us informed.

I'm not going to get into a detailed discussion about the ethical issues here, at least not right now.

I'm just glad things have worked out for you.

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If a person is HIV positive and conceals their HIV status, the other person cannot have consented to any sexual activity in which they would have relied upon that information which was concealed. In other words, concealment of HIV positive status would deprive another person of vital knowledge a reasonable person would rely upon in consenting to have sex, regardless if they intended to have unsafe sex or not. As a matter of law, in some jurisdictions, criminal intent is demonstrated by the concealment of such information.

I suspect our disagreement on the ethical aspect of these relationships is the heavy burden placed on the HIV positive person. You're right Indy, we never will agree on the ethical obligation imposed upon HIV positive people. It's a heavy burden that many HIV positive people have just because they are HIV positive. As I pointed out in my last response, if we fail to address our ethical obligations to each other, you can be assured somebody is going to address our legal obligations.

As it now exists, there is great resistance to discussing what our ethical obligations are to each other. It is indeed unfortunate the heavy burden falls upon the shoulders of HIV positive people. While I do understand why an HIV positive person might want to conceal their HIV positive status, there is an overriding and compelling public health consideration that makes what appears to be a private matter a public health and safety issue.

I just happen to think the issue of personal ethic between ourselves obligates us to disclose vital information which would impact the publics health and safety. We need to bring peer pressure to bear upon ourselves in accepting the burden of responsibility, rather than have that responsibility imposed upon us in the form of punitive criminal laws. Some jurisdictions have already done exactly that. If we take care of the ethical questions of our behavior, there will be little or no need for criminal sanctions. That is all I am saying.

__________________
Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. And, under a just God, cannot long retain it.

-- Abraham Lincoln

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This topic once again brings up the subject of when an individual should devulge his(or her) HIV positive status.
The law in many states does require that a POZ person inform their sexual partner before engaging in sexual activities. As a POZ individual, I personally have no problems complying with that requirement. As I see it, anyone who is positive and engages in reckless sexual behavior with another without informing their partner is indeed guilty of reckless endangerment.

But when should you inform someone?

When you first meet someone? One the first date? Before the first roll in the hay?

Let's look at the first senario. Let's set the scene; you're out at tyour favorite waterhole and a someone catches your eye. After the usual game of eye contact and wait and see, one of you finally approaches. After some small talk, you begin to feel some connection with this possible Mr. Right. OK, now comes the first decision, do you tell him now that you are HIV+ and risk immediate rejection? The responses that may come at this point run the gamut from him excusing himself to use the restroom(get another drink, ie) and not returning, or perhaps he'll overreact (drama queen alert), and blow up at you and acuse you trying to spread the virus to take as many as you can with you. Either way he may spread your news around the bar with in minutes.
Scene two. You have decided not to tell him until after you have gone out a few times, but before the 'deed is done'. Now this can be risky, as you may have invested some time and have developed feelings for this person and now face the possiblity of the drama queen response, or just having the person disappear like somene that owes you money. And again you risk having your status spread all over town

Finally scene three; You have dated for sometime, developed strong feelings for your prince charming, and decide to take the relationship to the next level. You tell you man and he reacts in one the two ways mentioned in senario two.

Or not, you also may meet some one in senario one, two or three tells you that he can deal with your status. Somewhere along the way (usually just before the first night of passion) that he really can't deal with the issue. See end of senario two.

Now there is always the slim possibility that dream man might actually me able to handle you HIV status. But trust me those men are just found in made for TV movies.

How do I know of all of these senarios? I have lived all of them. I did unscientific poll on AOL a few years ago and found that most guys will state that an HIV+ person should be able to date, but most would not date someone that they knew to POZ.

Of course there are the bug chasers and those that deniy the existance of the HIV virus. But those are guys you probably want to stay away from.

So for me, I've found it simply easier not to bother. This April it will be 4 years since I have enjoyed another man's company. This isn't to say that I don't enjoy the companioship of my friends, but I probably will never share my life with anyone in a physical way. You might say that I'm bitter, well not anymore. I was for a while, but I have since come to accept this as the way my life has to be. It just takes far too much of my energy to deal with the problems of others.

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Chidog,

You don't have to answer this, but have you considered other poz guys as relationship or sexual partner material? Maybe I am being naïve, but I would think this would ameliorate a lot of the issues that prevent you from taking relationships a step further.

Yes, I know that even if you are both poz it doesn't mean you can forget taking precautions. I just feel your HIV status becomes a non-issue or actually would strengthen the bond between you.

I don't know when it is the "best" time to tell someone you are poz. I just know it isn't just as the two of you are undressing each other.

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Chidog, it is a real dilema. What gets me is that guys are more than happy to play with a guy who doesn't know his own status, has NEVER gotten tested, than a guy like me, on meds, undetectable vl, always plays safe, and hence less risk than "Mr Don't Know". But I often quote Jimmy Carter to my kids, "life isn't always fair".

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Poz _ MBiM is right about the irony of some men having unprotected sex with men who don't know their HIV status -- meaning they have never been tested ... period.

The CDC has conservatively estimated there are 900,000 people in the United States who are HIV positive and they don't even know they are infected with the HIV.

One thing is for certain. Poz _ MBiM is not one of the 900,000 people who don't know they are HIV positive. The point I have consistently emphasized is the ethical burden of responsibility an HIV positive individual has to an individual who may become a sex partner where the possibility of having unprotected sex might occur under circumstances that are conducive to transmitting the HIV as well as other sexually transmitted diseases.

Having anonymous sex with strangers has certainly raised the stakes for everyone. Having anonymous unprotected sex with strangers raises the stakes even higher. Despite the appalling number of people who are HIV positive and don't even know it, having unprotected sex with people who don't know their HIV status continues to be an acceptable risk some people are willing to take.

Why some people are willing to accept the risk associated with having unprotected sex with anonymous people underscores why it is important to address the ethical issue of informed consent. As adults, I believe we have an ethical obligation to inform our potential sex partners if we are HIV positive. Withholding that information from our sex partners nullifies the underlying principle of informed consent and has the potential to expose an HIV positive person to criminal charges of reckless endangerment. In some legal jurisdictions, criminal intent of reckless endangerment is demonstrated by the deliberate withholding of HIV status and having unprotected sex with another person. As such, the burden of responsibility for informed consent goes well beyond the ethical responsibility we have towards each other.

If we address the ethical obligations towards each other, there needn't be an occasion where our obligation to inform becomes a legal obligation issue with potential punitive criminal sanctions.

__________________
Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves. And, under a just God, cannot long retain it.

-- Abraham Lincoln

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