Dear Peter

Is there really a solution to this? You run a great place and regardless of what is said and done. And that is points in my book, i have faith in your heart and spirit to do the right thing. (like always)

Your a great business man with a great sense on conviction. Thank you for treating people....people.

:0) woof

For this same reason, I never stop anyone from discripmate against gay. We, as a group, are the most discrimated people. We deserve to be sited at the back of the bus. Until we know how to treat our own kind better, do not expect other people to treat us good.

Hitler killed gay people just like us and he started by exclude certain groups of people.

Peterdeep -- you need to chill; all this about being repulsed, etc. by the gay community -- what you are selling is SEX, a primal human need that's not governed by Equal Opportunity laws, political correctiness, or quotas. What guys come to the Zone for is to GET OFF -- plain and simple.

Your critique of what you see in the gay culture implies that gay men should somehow become equal opportunity fucks; oops, better pull my dick out of this whiteboy, I haven't filled my asian quota tonight!

If your club or any club chooses not to allow Asians (or discourages them from joining) you are not denying them access to a job or to an education. You are denying them access to a sex club. They are not being damaged, except maybe in the area of their sexual self-esteem. But they are going to get this feedback anyways, everytime my hand pushes a tiny little cock back through the gloryhole.

OK, that last sentence probably angered and disgusted you. Well, I happen to not enjoy tiny little cocks. I don't know why, but it is probably biologically related to the human survival instinct (larger cock, more cum, better chance at having offspring). And I know all asians don't have tiny little cocks -- but the honest to god truth is that 99% of asian cocks I have encountered have been really small. And I am sorry, no amount of politically correct hand-wringing is going to make me desire an asian cock! And that doesn't make me prejudiced AT ALL -- it's like saying why doesn't that donkey fuck that horse -- oh no, that is a BAD DONKEY! He should like horses, after all they are very similar! OK, now I know that last sentence gets to the heart of the matter and probably really pissed people off. They are thinking "This guy is saying Asians are a different breed". Well, actually I am. Just as there are differenty types of dogs and cats and every other species on this planet that prefer to breed with their own. Again, this is biology -- animals stand a much better chance of successfully procreating if they mate within their own breed.

So I guess my point is, fine -- go ahead and do the politically correct thing. You will sleep well, feel good about yourself, and look like a hero to the entire gay and straight community! But you will not have provided what you profess to be in the business of doing -- a hot sexclub where most of your customers can go and get off. You are creating, for whatever reason, a club overrun by one particular group.

And I really don't care -- make the Zone an Asian sex club, a white sex club, or a sex club with no standards of admission whatsoever. Just know that the absolute reality of what turns humans on will never change, no matter how politically correct we pretend to be in the light of day. In the dark corners of a hot sex club I'm looking to get off with other hot guys, not be constantly accosted with tiny penises and hungry asian asses. OK, there I go again, I have stereotyped an entire race! But you know what? In my experience, what I have said is absolutely true. As they say, "It's not mean if it's true."

Free your Mind and the rest shall follow be color blind, don't be so shallow - Words to live by - ENVOGUE.

I to will take my money and spend it wherever my dick gets hard. You and your club have serviced our community in this fashion for many years...please do not let the personal preferrences of the narrow minded few, out the rest.

jeez, i just wandered into this thread, but boy does it present so many different avenues of discussion...

as a 4th generation asian-american, i find this thread to be particularly disturbing, mainly because of the blatant racism that is apparent through the behaviors of some club owners (as retold herein). i myself have never been to any sex clubs, but if i did go, i would never frequent a place that exercised such open discriminatory policies.

the situation in question can probably best be compared to a similar situation that happened to my family years ago. my grandfather used to own a hotel, and it was his policy not to allow blacks to stay there. (my mother told me this only a few years ago, and he has been out of the hotel business for over 50 years). this was ages ago, and done in such a manner as to "appear" polite and conciliatory. IS THIS A RACIST POLICY? now compare it to the situation at hand.

it makes me sick to my stomach that my own grandfather practiced such jim crow tactics. as a race that has been particularly hounded by both the public and our own government, i cannont stand prejudiced policies in any way shape or form. i myself have been the subject of racist remarks simply because of my outside appearance. believe me, it's not fun.

i do not pretend to be a holy saint. i know that i have my prejudices and foibles, but i know that they exist, and i work with them, rather than try and deny them.

on another point, it sickens me that angelenos are such shallow, false, guileful, decietful liars. i was born and raised in this city, and i love it to death, but many, not all but a sizable and vocal majority of the people here, gay and straight, are despicable creatures. this past summer i drove accross county, and was able to sample a wide swath of america. in places were i was the only non-white, i was treated with politeness and civility, which i returned with pleasure. of course, i never strayed too far from the interstate, but still, smiles were almost universal, as well as the simple phrases of politeness such as thank you, and have a good day. how often do you hear those in los angeles, or see a smile of politeness?

ok, on to the issue at hand... what is to be done with these clubs that seem to have been practicing a policy of exclusion?

i have read arguements that these are business ventures, and as such, should be allowed to pursue business interests as they see fit. well, the constitution allows for every citizen to pursue "happieness (which meant money to the founding fathers aka business)", but it also provides PROTECTIONS FROM PRACTICES ABBHORANT TO DEMOCRACY. the price of doing business in the united states is that you must do so in a democratic fashion. if a retail store in a metropolis such as los angeles were to deny the patronage of, say, blacks, or women, or latinos, do you think that they would stay in business? laws prevent discrimination in all levels and aspects of business. such violations should be documented and prosecuted as such. in today's day and age, such intolerace is unacceptable.

now, people do have individual tastes, as do i. however, to say that i will go to this place based on their exclusionary policies is to say i will ride the montgomery bus system because (before rosa parks) it enforces the unwritten policy that all blacks are to ride in the rear of the bus. complacency people, complacency

my biggest problem with what i've read so far has been the acceptance of this practice by the patronizing population at large. people seem to be content to end their memberships with at-fault clubs, but leave it at that. now, i don't want to draw parallels that are unjustified or unwarrented here, but the neuremburg laws started out as the legitimization of exclusion. it all starts somewhere.

i know i'm screwing these up, but i'd like to offer up a couple of quotes, the first from MLK jr, the second i don't know (perhaps e. wizel?)

"INJUSTICE ANYWHERE IS A THREAT TO JUSTICE EVERYWHERE"

WHEN THEY CAME FOR THE JEWS I SAID NOTHING
WHEN THEY CAME FOR THE POLES I SAID NOTHING
WHEN THEY CAME FOR THE CRIPPLES I SAID NOTHING
WHEN THEY CAME FOR THE GYPSIES I SAID NOTHING
WHEN THEY CAME FOR ME, THERE WAS NOBODY LEFT TO SAY ANYTHING.

complacency is the greatest evil here. MLK wrote that it wasn't the segregationalists or the klan or the racist law enforcement who would be villified in the annals of history for the evils of segregation, it would be the people who sat idly by and did nothing to end it, or aid the cause for freedom, who would ultimately be held responsible.

the gay community is not immune from racism or other forms of discrimination, whatever they might be. however, the ones who stand idly by and fail to work to end it only encourage its growth and perpetuation. complacency and acceptance are guilt in the eyes of a moral being.

now, i don't want to pontificate, and i know that i'm not doing all that i can to eliminate this scourge of discriminatory business from my fair city, however i don't feel i'm a hypocrite, since i know that i do all that is within my reasonable power to try and right the wrongs that i see. i don't stand in the way of loggers, i don't belong to greenpeace, but i do what i can.

if everyone did what they could to end this, instead of sitting idly by and watching as this practice continues, it would wither and die.

as jefferson said (i think it was jefferson anyway), "ETERNAL VIGILANCE IS THE PRICE OF LIBERTY" we cannot let our guard down. the civil rights movement never ends, stonewall is never over, we cannot sit by and think that everything is ok, because it isn't.

boy, now if i can only pour this much effort into my papers...

i welcome all comments and/or rebuttals.

i've said it before and i'll say ti again -- we don't have any cause to point a finger at an unaccepting group such as the christian right, we don't have any reason to decry the hate mongers like WAR and Arian Nation. they are among us, gentlemen!

what is appalling about this discussion is that so many of you are missing the poiont. NO ONE is suggesting or asking anyone to have sex with a person they don't find attractive. THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE. The issue is whether or not a particular RACE should be allowed to ENTER an ESTABLISHMENT -- the same establishment that you may enter without concern or question. that is what we are talking about here. it's a simple as that. they get no special treatment once inside. if they break the rules of that establishment they are out just like anyone else. but the question again is, do you want to support a business that considers the RACE of a person before they will allow them to walk through the door? And if you DO AGREE, THEN YOU ARE A RACIST. Because racists, by definition, are people who want to associate ONLY with their own race. and just because you may only follow this practice at a sex club doesn't matter. no one is a little racist. it's like being a little pregnant.

And finally, to our friend a few post up who stated as 'BIOLOGICAL FACT' that animals have a better chance of surviving if they copulate within their own breed, I would point out as a biology major that -- a) the entire basis for evolution and natural selection is based upon inbreeding -- it is the primary way new genetic combinations are introduced into the collective genome. that's why the bees cross-pollinate between different flowers and even dog and cats, to use your example, are constantly being cross-bred to produce stronger and better new breeds and b) as far as i know -- and admittedly i have not read all the current literature -- two men have never successfully produced an offspring and thus your entire arguement is questionable.

Losfelizboy,
If your reading what most people are stating on their post is that their not bigots or racists because they just aren't attracted to asians and find their actions irritating. I think that in my interpretation or prespective what they are saying is that since they aren't bothered by and possibly are attracted to African Americans, Latins or Middle Eastern, that they aren't prejudice or racists because these other groups are of different races, or perhaps they are but since the color dejour is "Yellow" or Asian they are sticking to the topic.

Either way "Freedom of Speech" is an unalienable right of all Citizens of this country. But to that effect that gives all the Anita Bryants and Dr.Lauras the same rights to express their sentiments reguarding gays and their lifestyles and they should have the right as does everyone on this post to express their facts and sentiments don't they? I don't think that expression is a crime but actions can be. If as gay men we have this kind of sentiment how can we ever united and have solidarity? Why do we refer to each other as family? Food for thought think about it! When 2 people argue or fight they are both wrong, it takes two to tango. What are the real issues is it race? Is everyone grasping at straws and making up excuses to cover or hide thier real prejudice or are these valid reasons?

[This message has been edited by alwayshard&horny (edited January 04, 2001).]

My personal frustrations with sex clubs is that there are just TOO FEW OF THEM. With gay bars there always tends to be a clientel -- leather bars, discos, country western, and those frequented by a specific community within the community. As a bar goer, I can chose where I go and expect a certain "common interest."

With sex clubs no way...(and I'm not talking about bath houses -- I really don't like them.. sex clubs are lot better) there are what two or three or maybe four? So you take all these guys with all their fetishes, desires, sexual fantasies jam them into two or three sex clubs and expect everyone to be happy? It isn't going to happen.

But I agree with the thread that there needs to be some sort of enforcement of "sex club etiquette" or people should be asked to leave. I myself have been "stalked" to the point of totally losing my interest in having sex or getting off (by people of different races, age, etc) and to a point of leaving and never going back to that club.

Peter is it possible to enforce such rules to make people more comfortable?

Load,
Your post is the perfect example of racial generalizing. To be honest, I'm not a fan of sex with Asian men, in general, because I'm just not physically attracted to Asian looks. But... I'm also not attracted to Black men, or obese men, either.

The thing that bothered me about load's post is the generalization and incorrect assumption that filipinos smell like garlic. This is not only ignorant, it's incorrect. The smell that you smell is (I believe) kimchee and it is Korean, not filipino.

F.Y.I
If you eat garlic in your food or eat whole cloves of it you find that it will come out of your pores,sweat and breath. As for defining which asian group smells of garlic, Koreans eat tons of it , Philipinos eat a ton along with the vietenmese, thai etc. If a person eats alot of garlic they will smell of it weither korean, philipino, thai, greek, italian or Persian. I've smelt many a person at the gym that had lunch at either KooKooRoos or Bajafresh that smelt like garlic so its not just asians. Personally I stay away from it unless Iam staying home and suggest others do the same since it isnt a pleasant odor

[This message has been edited by alwayshard&horny (edited January 04, 2001).]

[This message has been edited by alwayshard&horny (edited January 04, 2001).]

Well, I'll throw in my 2 cents worth too. When I used to go to Basic Plumbing, invariably the guys that made unwanted advances and never got a clue that I wasn't (and was never going to be) interested in them were asians. Prejudice means to "pre-judge" but to comment on actual observations and experiences is not PRE-judging anything; it's only making an observation. Honestly it was with asian guys that 9 times out of 10 that that I had to push unwanted groping away hands and had to tell them to back off due to unsolicited aggressive or voyeuristic behavior. White, black or hispanic guys always seemed to have better manners, be more in touch with the "etiquette" of how to interact in such an environment.

I no longer go to any sex club because (in part) it was just too frustrating to have all these aggressive and very unattractive asian guys always in your face. I'm sorry, but I have the right, and it's not prejudice, but my own taste, to feel that most asian men are very unattractive and have faces (frankly) that only a mother could love. And it's more than true that as a general rule they do have very small dicks, and like almost all HONEST gay men, I like 'em big. I have seen enough cock in my life of all stripes to know that this as a general rule is very, very true.

Sex clubs certainly should not exclude people based on race; that clearly is wrong and discriminatory, and I agree with all the other entries on that point. However, the clubs should strictly enforce rules that prohibit undesireable behavior, which includes groping when it's uninvited, leering, hogging booths for voyeuristic purposes, etc., and sadly that is what I have observed most of the asian guys do. If guys wanna leer, stay home and watch a porno flick. If they wanna grope, find someone who's interested in small dicks. Leave the rest of us alone. At least respect and observe the unspoken rules of behavior and etiquette that everyone else seems to understand! The owners of the clubs need to understand that such behavior is definitely there, and definitely UNWANTED, and that's why this gay man does not patronize your establishments.

I blinked and the post got soo long.
Peter, I would not knowingly support a business that discriminated but how am I to tell? I figure that people will collect where they are wanted and where they are successful in their "hunt". I always figured that asians would go wherever they wanted and I would go somewhere else. If club owners discriminate, I hope they do it subtley and with sensitivity. You can try but you'll never completely level the playing field. We are NOT all created equal. Just look around in the steamroom.

my 2 cents here now...

i will echo some of the comments about asians (at least the ones i encountered, mainly at basic plumbing too). bear in mind, i am usually not attracted to asian guys. i like the older, hairy, daddy type...but this doesn't change what i observed:

indeed, there would always seem to be groups of young, twink, asian guys at basic plumbing that would gaggle and giggle - in the walkways and public playspaces. similarly, younger hispanic guys would seem to do this too.

(i never comprehended going to a sex club in a "group"...this makes no sense to me)

anyway, i have to agree: the asian guys i encountered don't seem to understand basic sex club "etiquette"...they tend to grab/grope any guy that walks by them...and then they don't seem to figure out when someone is not interested. perception of basic body language - which includes even making friggin' eye contact - is lacking in how most asian guys cruise.

but my biggest complaint about any sex club, is guys who are doused in cologne. to me, this should be THE most enforced rule for non-entry.

i do not believe in discrimination...we all have types, and there's a match for all of us out there...barring any race of guys is wrong in my opinion.

but having said that: i think that ANY guy/guys/group who are talking/chatting/gossiping/giggling should be asked to leave...please go to the fucking abbey if you wanna chit-chat with your friends...go to a sex club to have SEX...'nuff said.

before you start saying that all asians are ugly look around you,I've seen my share of some ugly-ass people of all races. If your ugly your ugly, doesn't matter where your from and you know who you are.

Dudes!

Get over yourselves! For God's sake! I haven't been in a sex club yet that didn't have a smell worse than garlic. I've been pushed and fondled by every race and age (over 18 only), and have seen every size and shape/color of penis in the past year that I have frequented three of the different clubs out there. Two of those clubs closed, and the third doesn't care what you are as long as you're not hurting anyone. Every race is allowed in the third club, and I have yet to hear one Asian giggle...I have heard them slurp a couple of times...

As far as small dicks...Come on...I've seen monster dicks on all races...and I've seen teeney weenies on just as many men. I've been "blessed" with an average jimmie, and hate when some guy thinks I'm hot until he realizes I've only got 6 1/2".

And what is it that you see in the mirror when you're standing nude that makes you so much better than an Asian/Black/Hispanic/White/Jew/Christian/Atheist/Heterosexual? Think about it. One bad experience with a group isn't a foundation for a blanket statement or complete discrimination. I'd be happy to join the Zone, if I knew where it was.

Those places are so dark sometimes, anyway..All I have to say is a warm mouth is a good thing...no matter what language the tongue speaks...

For the record, I'm Hispanic.

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