Sex Wizard: First off, if you want people to take you seriously, then don't make personal attacks on someone who disagrees with your ideas. Calling me "self-centered" is not going to get you anywhere except a label as someone too insecure to have his ideas questioned and challenged. Since I live in the US and the vast majority of people posting here live in the US -- just check their profile information -- it's not unreasonable to point out that your system won't have a chance to even be considered in this country.
Secondly, if people who become positive get kicked out of the program and therefore their records become inaccessible to third parties, what exactly would be the point of your system? Aren't you proposing it so that people can learn whether someone they want to have sex with is positive or negative?
If your system can only say that someone's negative (and even that's questionable since it all depends on how updated the information would be in your system) what is someone to do with a partner who's been kick out because he tested positive? A potential partner won't know that the person tested positive and got kicked out since whoever is in charge of your system won't be able to reveal this. The potential partner only knows the person is not in the database. Does such a system really help the gay community, even if all the other potential for abuse and misuse never comes true?

We've heard the pros and cons regarding safe sex practices, individual truthfulness, trustworthiness of anonymous strangers, and everything else under the sun and moon. We cannot escape the fact this entire discussion would not be taking place but for the fact there is this issue of the HIV and AIDS. Each of us must deal with the issue of safe sex today because our very lives are at stake. We cannot escape certain aspects of gay culture that puts our lives at great risk.

One aspect of our gay culture that puts our lives at great risk is anonymous sex with strangers. Another aspect of gay culture that puts our lives at great risk is multiple sex partners. Add to these risks the potential lethal mix of alcohol and drugs and you have a risk multiplier effect. Anonymous Sex With Strangers + Multiple Sex Partners + Alcohol + Drugs = DANGER!

Any combination of one or more of the above is potentially lethal. So, our focus must be to eliminate most if not ALL risk factors.

These risk factors are a part of our gay culture because they are a part of our sexual lifestyle. A significant number of men will continue to practice their sexual lifestyle oblivious to the risks associated with unsafe sex practices. I can think of at least 200,000 reasonsfor practicing safe sex. There are estimated to be at least 200,000 people in the United States who do not know they have the HIV.

This thread needs to die already....

SexWizard, skip the hyperbole and your proposals...answer ONE question:

Why is having unprotected sex (with multiple partners no less) so important to you....until you can answer that question anything else you have to say is pointless

For me, "barebacking" (or what used to be just normal sex), is a very pleasurable variant of the "safer sex" we practice in the presence of HIV. Barebacking is like Christmas dinner or a a trip to the Alps. Sometimes I will bareback a date I really like or love, other times I seek out an escort willing to bareback (as a bottom). I realize that these behaviors put me at risk and I practice them less than 2 or 3 times a year. In essence, what makes them so important is their erotic power, and I have yet to find substitute behaviors that take their place.

There is another factor that figures into the unsafe sex equation -- Communication. Specifically, it is the lack of communication that takes place in the chance or anonymous sexual encounter.

In the world of Cruisingforsex, many of our sexual encounters fall into the category of chance or anonymous encounters. We don't know the other person on a personal basis. We cruise for anonymous sex with complete strangers who are cruising for anonymous sex just like us. What little communication that does take place between us is probably about what kind of sex we are seeking at that moment. Our focus is on getting off ourselves or getting the other guy off right then and there. HIV status?

The HIV status of the other person is probably the least likely subject (if ever at all) to come up during a chance or anonymous sexual encounter. If you are cruising a hot looking guy at your favorite cruising location, our focus is on the sex both cruisers are seeking out. There is no exchange of names and other personal information before, during, or after the anonymous sex. It is typical "Wam-Bam-Thank You-Man" sex and we move on to our next encounter. This scene is played out in the world of the cruiser on a minute-by-minute, hour-by-hour, day-by-day, and year-by year basis.

Unfortunately, this is the sexual encounter scene for many men out there. The participants are many. That good looking guy who offers his ass to be fucked unprotected (bareback) is a prime candidate for contracting the HIV if he has not already acquired the HIV previously from another chance encounter sometime in the past. The guy who will willingly unbuckle and unzip his trousers at the drop of a hat, without so much as thinking about protection for himself or his partner, is a prime candidate for contracting the HIV.

Unfortunately, this is the world of the cruiser despite our best efforts to inform and educate ourselves about the HIV and AIDS. Ignorance of the facts does play a role in the spread of the HIV. Lack of education also plays a role. But, ignorance and lack of education alone does not take into account the fact too many men are choosing to engage in unsafe sex when they know and understand the consequences of the risks they are taking. Sadly and tragically for those who have unsafe sex, the consequences of risk have no immediate impact on their lives. HIV statistics have little or no value to anyone caught up in the moment of getting off with another chance encounter at their favorite cruising spot.

Responding to sandog,


Although it came out as a personal attack, I feel that you are using unclear evidence against my proposal. We are not even sure if my proposal would violate any laws that you are talking about. For instance, can you in the US go to a clinic and ask for a certificate with all you STD test results? I know you can in my local clinic. As I said earlier, the system I propose is an electronic version of the certificate in har-copy. Currently, if I were HIV+, infected with gonorrhea, have had 2 episodes of syphilis, I wouldn't ask for suck certificate. Similarly, in my electronic version, someone who had this STD status would not be forced to be in the database that is used by the system I'm proposing.

This has been already been partially answered. Again, think of my system as a replacement of the certificate. If I meet a guy on the chatline and check his STD status using my proposed phone system, I'm back to square one. It's my choice to go ahead and have sex with him. However, if I do so I must report that I have had sex with a man outside the network. This is what the periodic interview would be for.

Or, I can choose to say: "Sorry man. I only fool around with guys who are in this program." That way a man has a greater guarantee that the men he has sex with tests negative to all STDs and does it regularly.


Gay community? Why bring gay community into a discussion that has nothing to do with it. I'm discussing a system to help men choose sexual partners that they can trust because they know (1) that they are testing regularly, (2) that they are receiving emotional support if they need it. Furthermore, there is no reason for this system not to be open to women, as I said before. If a woman is looking for a husband she can check for her new partner's STD status and reassure herself that having sex with him would be OK. Remember that in order to check on members of this program, you have a to be a member yourself.

Again EbonyMagic brings up the gay culture into the discussion. Why? Please read my other post on Sexul Orientation. In this thread we don't focus on gay, straight, or bi. We focus on the fact that there are many men who wish they could have a greater guarantee about the safety of their male partners. Many of these men are married men who need to satisfy needs that currently they don't satisfy, or they do so risking becoming infected with STDs (not only HIV!).


Then, pornsizedguy wrote:

I guess is hasn't (-:

I think that bigmike answered that question. But I will add that my guess is that most men don't like to suck on rubber or put a rubber on their cocks when they are getting a blow-job. I'm one of these men.


Herne The Hunter wrote some interesting comments:


I disagree with the notion cruising is bad. There are reasons why men like cruising and anonymous sex. Most men like to think of anonymous sex as a temporary phase. As if "real" sex can only be achieved in a relationship. However, I do agree that the current situation of the cruiser has gone to an extreme. But my approach is not to censor the needs of men, but to channel them in a way that men can enjoy eroticism and sex in a safer way. With the help of my system, there are possibilities of organizing hot group sessions. A number of men, all members of the system, can get together and do whatever they want without having to worry about STDs. Furthermore, the program could offer special counseling to members of the system who feel the need to participate in safe group action. This could mean, for instance, that a greater monitoring of the interested members. I don't know. There are many options. What's important is not to ignore the needs of men.

Herne The Hunter has a point. It would be better if men had a more stable sexual life, without having to live with an obsession about sex. Some men may disagree. Obsessions are powerful experiences that are sometimes difficult to let go. Why would a man obsessed with impersonal sex, reflect on his inner self, resolve all his emotional turmoil, and never experience the power of anonymous sex?

What I think should be done, is to educate boys about male sexuality. We should talk to them about their cock, erections, cum, and the shame about all of this. If boys knew how to handle and deal with their shame, they would be less likely as adults to spend time in gloryholes, and want to get fucked in the ass bareback. But we need something to help those men who as boys did not get the necessary information and had to adapt in bizarre ways.

TheSexWizard

[ April 22, 2001: Message edited by: TheSexWizard ]

Being respectful of all the above opinions I truly feel the reason that barebacking is even an issue is because we have forgotten what it was like the first time around. I also know that those days are far behind but we seem to be making a u turn for the worst. Though it's not a death sentence to be HIV+ these days I've yet to see a friend turn positive and remain the same. Sure the body is not devastated like before but the person becomes a shadow of what they used to be. I'm not saying that this is the case for everyone. It seems like we can't even be honest to protect our community. Who needs all those homo-hater politicians when we are doing the worst damage ourselves. Of all the people I know that are positive about one or two are honest to themselves and others about their condition. Several continue to behave as if nothing where different not taking any consideration for their partners.

Pornsizedguy has voiced many of these concerns very well. I could not agree more. As far as showing compassion, maybe it's time that people were slapped with reality and take responsibility for their actions. I fortunately was too young to be affected the first time around and managed to educate myself very well. So were my friends yet they got infected in the last 2 years. We were the generation that did not know what it was like to have sex without a condom yet people I know continue to turn positive. These are well educated, intelligent, individuals who are active in the community and experienced the loss of friends the first time around. All the resources are there for both sides yet the numbers show where the interest, or lack of, is. I've tried to convice my friends to come out so that the message hits home to the rest of us that it's ravaging our community again. I just feel like we can protec eachother better. Be it though compassion, honesty and or reality. We must not keep pretending like it will be OK until there is a cure.

Hey, Sexwiz.. have you thought about trying your idea within this site? Like having HIV status slot within the profiles? Maybe just to see who responds?

Ah now we have philosophy too...

Kuhn can be used to argue against anything....you can debase positivism all you want, but it the foundation on which all human knowledge has been built and organized.

But back to the real world.

The arguments here are all over the place, contradictory and add no insight into why men would want to bareback or worse yet to bareback and NOT talk about HIV.

Yet they make it quite clear that something must be done, unfortunately it will probably be more government involvement.

Why should we the taxpayer's have to pay the medical benefits for people who willfully and knowingly put themselves at risk for contracting a disease, and why should we pay for the medical benefits for someone who knowingly spreads the disease.

This is the ethical catch-22.

We give benefits out of compassion...but end up taking the fear out of the disease and wind up keeping people alive and living who have no compassion for anyone else.

Joe-Blow asked:

It wouldn't really work. The information has to be managed by a separate agency in order to make sure that the results are real. Remember, my system is siply a replacement for the "paper certificate" that one can obtain at a STD clinic indicating the test results. Allowing to include your HIV status in your profile is like allowing anyone to write their own certificate.

Another point. My proposal is supposed to include not only HIV, which will provide protection for other STDs.

pornsizedguy wrote:

Could you be more specific?


TheSexWizard

There is no way to be 100% certain of your sexual partner's health. And many guys are walking around with HIV and other diseases without even knowing it. It's a fact that it takes 3 months, and up to 6 months, for HIV to even show up in the lab work (just ask your doctor). Therefore, you may saythat you're negative, and even believe that, but in fact, may be positive.
And, many guys DO lie. Sex is as strong a desire as the desire to eat, and many guys will lie to have sex. Why? The stigma that many in our gay community have put on HIV+ guys. Some of the nicest guys I know are HIV+, btw.
In my opinion, it's up to you to keep yourself safe. In 2001 it's foolhardy to play unsafe and say "you must be HIV negative too"...You'd actually trust a stranger with your life?
My doctors says that if you assume everyoneis HIV positive, then you'll practice absolute safe sex.
In my opinion, you assume all risks when not playing safe.

__________________
5'11", 160lbs, 31" waist, 41yo. Short hair, clean shaven/clean cut appearance. Exhibitionism, nudity, 100% bottom, SAFER SEX ONLY (condoms)! Love "servicing" straight/bi guys, and love rimming shaved, hot holes.

Hello, Sex Wizard...I'm still in your corner on this subject of barebacking with men we can trust! I have decided to STEER CLEAR of any threads where viewpoints such as ours will not face much understanding or support. Too much preaching...don't we have enough of that from the religious right and other less-enlightened forces? I believe that the climate among men like us, just as the climate within mainstream America, has turned far more conservative and less supportive...thanks to the Reagan-Bush era and the increasing intolerance growing in response to the current Bush administration. I no longer wish to defend my viewpoints on this issue because I believe there are many within our communities who truly do not understand what you're saying...they continue to see only the negative/traumatic side of things. Good luck to you and I hope that you will find those men who will make your bareback group a reality....

I guess only gay identified men really care what happens to other gay men, while the straight guys come in here with their BS about our community.

If you really want a bareback bottom for your precious cock, there are plenty of self hating gay men who would glady take your precious prick and feel so good about themselves cause they landed some straight trade. Then you can go home and fuck your girlfriend too. Hope she is on the pill, lol.

As far as it feeling better, you are all really just full of shit.

I will whip out my porn sized dick against any of you anytime. Condoms have always been too tight for me and have hampered my erections, but the one thing I have found is that if I am really turned on and into the guy I am with, I can stay hard and fuck him till I cum, all while wearing that condom.
(by the way Magnum just came out with XL size)

Sex is the the brain, and you idiots keep making these arguments with your dicks.

You dont like my attitude, fine. I am a gay man simply looking to have safe fun with other like minded men.

And I seriously doubt that any of you "straight" guys for one minute would defend a gay men being beat up on the street, even if it was the same idiot who let you fuck him raw. You only see us gay men as a place to dump your load and serve your needs.

typical straight men. could care less about anyone else. only themselves.

And none of you ever answer the question:

Of course it feels different, DUH!

But why the fuck is it SOOOO important to you? Does is serve some psychological need?

And dont give me that fluid exchange is meaningful crap. Cause I have met plenty of bareback boys that "aren't into kissing."
I'm sorry but swapping spit face to face, and deep hard kissing with a man is much more of a connection than a load up someone's ass.

Of course, this discussion was more about barebacking in a safe group environment...not really about how "straights" feel about us cocksuckers after we get beaten up or some other related events! But the way in which heterosexuals treat each other concerning barebacking is indeed much different from how gay/bisexual men go about such issues. The mainstream "heterosexual community" in the U.S. does NOT preach and condemn barebacking among men and women because they still associate HIV with gays, drug abusers and transfusion patients. And straight men continue to have lots of raw sex with women because they still look at HIV as a "gay problem." We as men seeking men should take the time to find out why safe-sex prevention is not succeeding and allow a variety of choices in addition to condoms and abstinence. Men will be men...and we must treat them as intelligent creatures who can make their own choices, given the information presented to them....

blackguy469 wrote:

The main problem I see is that these people are a bit "thick" and refuse to understand my proposal. Although the subject heading mentions "barebacking" (catchy title!), its objective goes beyond that purpose. I repeat, for the third time? This system would replace the paper certificate by an online/telephone inquiry system. Therefore, it can have a wide range of clientele.

It could be a woman who has met a man but she is afraid of AIDS; at the clinic she learns that there are more diseases to be worried about. Both register in the program, they do a 6-month waiting period. During this time both are interviewed separately and take a battery of tests, from medical examination to HIV.

Another client could also be a married man who wants to find one or more men in his situation to "play" with. But who is petrified of even "crabs" because of his wife. The problem with these men is that they either try to suppress their feelings for other men's bodies, or one night drunk he stops at a cruising spot and gets sucked off or fucked with no protection at all. A no win situation for these men.

Last but not least, men who need to satisfy fetishes that require unsafe sexual practices. These include barebacking, swallowing cum, fist-fucking to name a few. Men would register individually and go through the 6-months period. As all other members of this system, during this time they would be interviewed and tests conducted. Potentially, several members can get together an participate in group sex and whatever activity they may want.

Pornsizedguy wrote:

The problem, pornsizedguy, is that you may one day change and feel the need for raw sex. Sexual scripts are known to change. One day you may find joining this program (-:

I wonder why self-victimization scripts are so popular with gay men? Why don't we look at this issue as "men will be men?" Forget about the gay part. If women went out at night to public parks looking for sex, "straight" men would love it. Men are men, but in an all-male environment men go wild (wars, hazing, and of course sex)

Sorry, but I think that's your fantasy.

Then blackguy469 writes:

Maybe in the future, once men are allowed to freely enjoy their bodies, including the cock, men won't need impersonal sex to the same extent men need it now.

There are two aspects to this issue, the issue of male-shame. Because of shame, males perceive a distorted view of what erotic arousal and sex are. It becomes easily associated with sin (i.e. the Original Sin). Therefore, one issue is to deal with the men at the present time and who received little support during adolescence, while at the same time, work to change the way we bring up boys.

My proposal deals only with trying to patch things up for those men who want to do something about their unmet needs about the male body.

TheSexWizard