Jupiter offing
 

To my eye the recent line-up at Jupiter is very glamorous and hunky.I notice though that some of the more model types get offed very quickly and regularly.I wonder if the talent there is "can do anything" or more like the reputed Tawan style - dead in bed.

The shows at Jupiter are still spunky and strangely audience 99% farang-free.

If anyone has taken someone from Jupiter off recently please report back.Was very close to doing so but thought it was all too good to be true.

PS.During June ( and maybe now) found the show at Future Boys entertaining especially a jungle-boy type who does a magic show with a knife and also bangs bricks over his head.Cute.

I got the distinct impression that Jupiter has gone "sticky rice" and that neither management nor boys were particularly interested in farang. I was the only farang in a packed bar about 2 weeks ago and wont be going back anytime soon. (The boys are very phuuchai and not many gays.)

I have offed some boys from Jupiter over the years and always been delighted. Same, same, Tawan bar. Maybe I'm easily pleased.

Jupiter has a lot going for it and when on form it's a terrific show well rehearsed and presented and nothing similar elsewhere. For some reason dancing guys lightly clad are a great turn on for some.

Jupiter does have it's problems:

Sight-lines are not good and they make them worse sometimes by draping stuff high up and putting bunches of plastic flowers on the shower which means you cannot see from above.

Seating is pretty uncomfortable in the main and the convex stainless steel benches ( originally for the boys to sit on ) are agony.

I have a lung illness and have often had to leave this bar due to the high number of smokers and the over-use of the smoke machine.

The high raise stage does make the boys remote from the punters and eye contact is not easy unless you sit front row stalls - which I favour.

I was in there about three weeks ago and was not impressed by the current crop of boys. There were not that many and the lean athletic physique body was absent. These things can change by the night.

I have had very enjoyable times in this bar since it moved and often wonder why it is so popular with Asians and not with foreigners.

Two main reasons, I think.

1. It's to do with the type of boys they have on offer - a bigger, more masculine type - which tends to be the type favoured by East Asian visitors. You see a similar phenomenon in DreamBoy. On the other hand, a disproportionate number of Western visitors prefer the small-built, slightly fem type, which is why you would hardly see predominantly Western visitors in places like Nature Boy or the Sunnee Plaza (Pattaya) bars.

2. It's the low season for travellors from the West. For Asian visitors, there is less of a low season, since they are nearer to Thailand and can come anytime. The relative percentage of Asian visitors would appear higher during this period.

Wowpow,

What exactly do you do with the boys, or ask them to do to you? I think that will help us evaluate whether or not they should be considered "cooperative".

Sorry Wowpow, but I totally disagree with your opinion. In the early days of Tawan (upstairs Suriwongse Rd) I had a number of excellent offs, but today I would never again off a boy from Tawan. I've offed perhaps 5 boys over last 5 yrs from Tawan, every time has been zero service plus arrogance, plus rude demands for ridiculous tips. (I speak adbvanced Thai, I politely, deliberately turn the conversation to what I'm looking for, in detail, before offing, so please don't suggest 'maybe it's a language problem')

I work/live in Bkk (20 yrs), I go to Jupiter regularly for what I think is a great show. I don't agree at all that the crowd in nearly all Asian, and I don't agree they are farang unfriendly. I will say that I have offed several boys from Jupiter over the years, every time has been a disaster. Promises of full service before leaving, then nothing whatever in bed. Last time was the last straw. Told the boy I would take him to BBB inn (Rama 4), he rudely demanded a taxi (very polite boy in the bar before being offed). I then decided to use a short time Suriwongse room. In the room for one second and he tells me that Jupiter boys (who are offed) have to be back inside the bar within 15 minutes or they get sacked (this was not a show boy), and minimum tip for Jupiter boy is 3,000Baht. I dismissed him instantly with zero Baht. I have much much better luck with Hero club, much better. Right now I would highly recommend Khun Wood.

Scoops,

What an interesting post. I had no idea that Tawan bar started upstairs on Suriwong Road. My first visit was in 1994 when it appeared well established in Soi Tawan though smaller.

Reports of unsatisfactory boys from Tawan bar are too numerous to deny but I repeat that over the last 13 years I have very rarely been unhappy, had a demand for a big tip ( I usually give them 1500 baht but 2000 if they take me to Paradise ) I laugh at requests for taxi money. Icon I am not about to state my bed preferences but suffice it to say that cuddles, massages and frottage are paramount and penetration is not.

I am astonished that you feel the audience at Jupiter is not mostly Asians. I always have a quick survey and often find that in a full bar there are less than a dozen westerners. Like you I am a fairly regular customer. I actually find that all the Bangkok 'top' bars have more Asians than Westerners but the reverse applies in Pattaya.

I hope that after the shock of the 15 minute boy you went back to Jupiter and got your off fee back.

Thanks for replies.So far one positive response to "off" Jupiter dancers.Since their move I tend to agree with Wow-Pow that it is most popular with Asian customers whatever the season. Also,when on stage the guys flash their eyes quickly, never resting on any customers gaze.Other bars if you look for a second too long a visit usually results.Jupiter boys may not be hungry enough.I like the attitude they project ( 'Im too sexy..") but maybe down to earth is better for offing.

When I put out a feeler to "off" to a captain he said they stay with you for two hours and the fee and tip were standard

Yes Tawan was originally on Suriwonge road. Go back to suriwongse from current location, turn left, walk around 50 metres, turn left and walk down a long thin corridor and up the back stairs, very long very thin bar. Same owner as today. At first he had very young much smaller boys, not high body definition, mostly very narluk types, but not many real ladyboy types. They danced full naked with one hand always over their plumbing. Then owner suddenly changed to older boys, I guess 19 to 25 years, 99% very masculine types, perhaps 60% with excellent definition, but no whales like today, plus about 40% just nice slim bodies.

In those days you always had to check your change immediately, because there was a good chance of short change. I can remember dozens of times seeing customers insist the waiter or captain wait whilst customer counted the change, discovered it was short, then back to the cashiers desk to get the rest of the change. Most of the time the owner was working as the cashier.

In the old location a whole different atmosphere to what it is today.

My first visit to Bangkok was more than 26 years ago. In those days Twilight (now Hotmale) was in a different location, other side of Suriwongse, back towards Patpong, you had to walk up a steep ramp to second floor entrance door, same old gatoey owners who recently sold the new Twilight to the Hotmale owner.

No gay bars in the soi now with so many bars (can't remeber the name).

In those days Barbiery was very popular, and barbiery occupied two floors for a while, upper floor was close to a duplication of the main Barbiery floor. Owner was ruthless and controlled the boys very strongly.

But most go go bars were in the soi where telephone and Balcony now located. I can recall perhaps 7 or 8 go go bars in that soi. Biggest of all was a place called, if my memory is correct 'Henry J Morgans'. Very large bar, I think it was located above what is now Balcony. Often 200 or so boys per night, many well under age. Lots of full nudity, continuous different sex shows, often with 14 years old boys fucking 14 year olds (obviously i'm guessing the ages.) Short time rooms on the premises. I think it was 60 Baht off, and a 'normal' tip was 300Baht, 400 for generous tip.

So, which bar is best for offing the boys if you want a pleasant, nice guy? I prefer the masculine type.

I would off someone from Jupiter maybe once a year, but I've a feeling it's been maybe 18 months or more since I last did it. Thinking about it as I read this thread, I have to confess that this is in all likelihood because I too have a feeling that the Jupiter boys tend to be aloof. Some have given me the vibe that they think too much of themselves. This is probably why Jupiter is now quite low down my priorities if I have to choose a bar to go to.

Having said that, I must admit too that my sample size is very small. Maybe I've just had bad luck for the last 4 - 5 years?

Yet the boys obviously get off'd. Jupiter can't be doing it all wrong if they're surviving in business... so how to explain it?

Their show is a cut above the rest, and consistently so, and that's the main reason why I would go to Jupiter nowadays.

Last night - after supping in 'Dick's Cafe.', (not too busy.), i went-to 'JUPITER.', whither I've not been for several years.
Arr'd. about 21.35hrs. to find approx. 30 patrons there already, mostly at the stage RIGHT end of the seating, (opp. to the shower-stall.),.
I sat in the 3rd. row back from the stage, roughly mid-way between the translucent steps and the shower-stall.
Drinks are 250.Bh..
I wasn't at all taken with the boyz there: true, they're across the spectrum - as it were: a couple of ab originees who'd been around the block several times already I'd guess by looking-at them; a couple with this now fashionable under-chin hair; a plump & chubby one; a few more slightly built boyz and the remainder well-built. They all wore the usual male boxers on wch. their numbers were quite clearly seen, (unlike in some other bars.), over wch. some wore vests and others didn't.. To these tired old eyes the boyz all looked aloof, distant and no signs of any inter-action with any of the spectators: no nods, winks, 'Cum hither.' smiles etc..
The place filled-up gradually, so that by the time the lights dimmed ataround 22.10hrs it was quite full: mostly Asians, a few farangs but a larger number of wimmen that I'd have expected.
A pre-main show series of 4 acts, 2 of wch. featured a chantoosie.
Then, for about 10mins. the R&F. a go-go boyz ret'd..
I thought that the main show was passable, but I can't write that I was aroused by any of it; to my ears the applause was tepid, wch. I thought matched most of the acts.
Having read long, long ago that one of the boyz who featured in thr shower-scene was so well endowed that he had a waiting-list of farangs eager to avail of his svces. so that he could pick and choose I was all eyes - well, almost. But both boyz, although better than avg., were by no means all that well hung.
The final act was a 'Big C*ck.' show. I always say: "If you got it then flaunt it - otherwise don't bother."; all too many of the boyz seemed to be too embarrassed and/or shamefaced to shew-off their assets.
The perf. finished at arounf 23.50hrs..
I'll allow that I felt out of sorts and so didn't really feel like looking-in at 'SUPER A.' - and so returned home alone.
It'll be another long time before I'll return thither.
'bye..

They must have abandoned the previous policy of charging a higher price for females in order to keep them out. I thought that was one good thing they did. Pity the other bars didn't adopt likewise.

Yes - I'd heard from several sources that following upon the unspeakably unprintable exploits of an Australienne wimmen were subject to a levy - possibly the need for paying customers has over-ridden that?

Looking-back to my recent visit to 'JUPITER.' - what was lacking was any sense of participatory fun from both the performers on stage and the spectators, with little, if anything, flowing between them; it was all so serious, so dull and so lifeless :-(
'bye..

no fun
 

I haven't been to Jupiter in over a year, but what Sextile said about the place rings true for so many Bangkok go-go bars nowadays: they just don't have the sense of fun and friendliness that they used to have. Going back to the mid to late 90s, and earlier in this decade, there were several bars that I enjoyed going to on a regular basis, both in the Patpong area and in Saphan Khwai, but I can't think of a single place that I truly enjoy going to anymore. Cute guys are all over Bangkok, but I don't see them working in the bars anymore. Maybe I'm also jaded, but I DO note a definite difference in what I see compared to a decade ago.
These days I find the friendliest places are in Saphan Khwai, but unfortunately none of them (except for BeHigh) offer go-go dancers, and I get bored staring at a row of guys dressed in street clothes whose eyes are glued to a nearby TV set.
As for Jupiter, they priced themselves beyond my threshhold when they went to 250 baht for a drink. I used to go there with a friend that loved the place but even he has stopped going after too many unsatisfactory experiences offing boys from there. As some others have noted, the boys look bored and hardly smile. And frankly they are not nearly as attractive as they looked a few short years ago. It's more than bad hairstyles and too many tattoos. Pot bellies and facial hair? That sounds like a lineup of tuk-tuk drivers. No thank you!

I see a couple of mentions of drink prices at Jupiter 2002 being 250 baht. Unless there has been a very recent price hike, the prices quite recently and for some time have been 200 baht and 220 or maybe 230 on Fridays and Saturdays.

Now from my point of view, the place is not currently on a high with the current crop of boys and dancers.In the past I have been completely bowled over by the superb original shows with energetic erotic dancing by athletic guys - sort of pop burlesque. The place has a modern decor which is different from the inevitable black chrome and mirrors elsewhere. The sound system is the best I have heard in any go-go bar.

They have had some magnificent looking guys there and on occasion I heard that some were taking bookings three weeks ahead. he trouble with employing great lookers is that the customers pinch them and either support them in Thailand or take them to their home country.

THe place began to fade a bit and then a year ago, roughly, a new choreographer came along and revamped the show to be more disciplined, different, better use of the stage, it's 2nd floor balconies, plexiglass staircase and more erotic with lot of erections on show. That was superb and I rushed my friends there to see and marvel - which they did. It was on a par with the sadly departed, Icon or X-treme dancers at their very best.

Everything changes and I look forward to the next revival at this bar. There is something particularly exciting for me and many watching good bodies dancing.

You guys should really head to Pattaya for more of the old BKK style fun bars. I really like Sawasdee Bar, Funny Boys, Dynamite (1st floor), Gentleman's Club and even Splash. Avoid Boys Bangkok (bit like Jupiter now with mainly "men")...and avoid Sunnee which appears less than legal ! Or cruise the beach at Jomtien near the beach volleyball.....its still fun there.

Possibly it's only at week-ends that 'JUPITER's.' prices are 250.Bh ? But that's what I was charged and so were others within earshot.

As some other a go-go bars will be having events/parties soon I'll see if my busy schedule will allow me time to visit and to see if their boyz appear to be enjoying what they'll be doing and can communicate that sense of fun to the spectators & voyeurs - and if the latter can/will reciprocate:
1.- 27 jul. - HOTMALE, Soi Twilight - Mr. ThunderMan. ;
2.- 02 aug. - X-MAN, Soi T'light. - Mr. RainingMan 2007.;
3.- 09 aug. - DREAMBOYS BARBEIR, Soi T'light. - 9th. Anniversary Party.
'bye..

Jupiter 2002
 

Yes the 250 baht must be weekends as I was there on Tuesday evening and a Black, soda was 200 baht.

The place was not very busy - under 20 punters - and to my amazement and the first time ever I saw more farangs than Asians. I arrived about 10 p.m. and the boys dancing did not thrill. I saw their brief 10.15 show which was pleasant. Tawan was beckoning so I left before the 10.45 show.

About 3 months ago I was dating a tall good looking 19 y.o. thai who wanted to see the show at Jupiter. We went along just after 9 pm and the bastards checked his I.D and wouldn't let us in! Pointing out that he could actually work there at 18 didnt have any effect....thai logic?

Thai law...and they could have gotten into a lot of trouble if they bent it for you.

Maybe...but I understood that the legal age to buy and consume alcohol is still 18 and the setting of 20 for entry was an arbitrary decision by the previous (mad) minister for social order under Thaksin. At the time it was not enacted formally as law...has that now been enacted?

My understanding is that the legal age to drink in a bar or restaurant has been 21 years old for many years. A recent proposal to increase this to 25 years old was squashed.

The age at which you can buy liquor in a shop was 18 years and is about to be increased to 20 years old.

With the age for working in a bar, host go-go. as a service worker is 18 years. It is technically illegal to buy a bar boy a drink!! Maybe that's why they order gin and tonic and get Sprite.

I seem to remember X-treme bar being closed after a Police raid when it was found to have a 20 year old - underage - girl in the bar as a customer.

It always seemed to me that if you set and age for responsibility then permission to get married, vote, join the army and die for your country and drink alcohol should all be the same and for most countries is set between 16 and 19 years.

Ah, Jupiter! Never had a satisfactory off. I wonder if it is management or the boys telling each not to do anything.

Mayby I have been to BKK too many times but I really think that the overall attractiveness level has gone downhill in the past 2-3 years. Even my usual mamasans have to agree.

For those who like the typical size, age group of Jupiter I have a suggestion - try Hero massage. Agreed it's one hour, but I estimate my success rate to be 4 out of 5.

Most will willingly give their mobile number and visit you at home, usually with no one hour time limit.

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL160.../268294033.jpg "Ah, Jupiter! Never had a satisfactory off. I wonder if it is management or the boys telling each not to do anything." They have 30 to 40 boys at Jupiter. I wonder how many rubyhanoi tried before stating the above. I have actually only offed four boys from there and all have been an absolute delight and offed several times. They were all leading dancers with superb bodies and I though surprisingly modest considering their looks. I still regret not offing the superstar one ( 3 weeks bookings ahead ) what a stunner! I was intimidated by his excess of masculine beauty and did not book him. Probably living in Switzerland now. I do visit the bar fairly regularly and would say that the decline in athletic handsome boys has only happened this year. Hopefully, it's just a blip. This bar is worth a visit because it is very different to anything else around and the show is good even when the dancers are only 8 out of 10s.

Let's all keep in mind that wowpow's demands of his offs are a little different from those of the rest of us. I'm not sure what he does with the boys would even be considered "sex" by the majority of the posters here.

Deleted
 

In the interest of harmony, I have remove my post objecting strongly to the post above by Icon. I still do but leave it to others to decide if it is reasonable.

I wasn't knocking you in any way, wowpow...where do you get that from? You yourself said in another message that you weren't into penetration, but more into cuddling -- which is perfectly fine. But a lot of people expect more when they're paying money for sex. I'm just sayin'.

Admittedly, I have been repetitive in my opinion of Jupiter but I figured since it is a new poster, I might as well give my opinion again.

If someone has had a good time with the Jupiter boys, then well this is what this thread is all about.

Unfortunately my experiences has been less than satisfactory ..

rubyhanoi - yes you repeat your dissatisfaction with the go-go boys of Jupiter but you don't say how many times you offed boys from there and in what they did not please. To condemn a barful of boys 30+ seems a little harsh.

Icon is obviously knowledgeable on the sexual requirements of most of the board members - How? So please share with us what the boys agreed to and then would not do.

Sadly, Icon did not read exactly what I wrote about my preferences - despite avid searching I cannot trace the post but it went something like " For me cuddling, massages and frottage are more important than penetration. Why I was so idiotic as to tell him when he asked the question I don't know. I suspected that I might regret it but did not realize how much, how soon or how cruel he would be.

Anyway, whatever, I certainly consider what I enjoy sex and so would President Clinton. No doubt some would consider a blow job through a glory hole sex - well I prefer to be in the same room as my partner in sex.

I have friends who tell me that asll they require of a boy is that "he assume the position and maintain it until I have finished". Thrashing around the bed is not required.

I have been told by western sex workers that some customers arrive strip throw their legs into the air and want to be fucked for the full time an hour or more. They find that very difficult to do.

Some people off boys and want to be fucked several times a night - seemingly women are more demanding than men in this respect.

When someone says that they never had a good boy from a bar, I always have a niggling wonder if their demands are very difficult for Thai boys who are often straight. On the other hand I do know that boys will promise to do anything to get offed as they almost invariably get some money.

Bar boys that I like, and I am talking of the handsome, masculine, muscular/ athletic types who are mostly straight, tell me that they only fuck their customer up the arse quite infrequently. One who has been working in Pattaya for over 3 years says he has only done that 34 times. Others confirm that is is much rarer than I had expected.

Believe it or not I see boys that I like repeatedly. The boy who first fucked me in Thailand in 1994 is still around in Soi Twighlight/Pratuchai. I had lunch last week with a boy I met in Henry/Harry Bar in Silom Soi 1 over 8 years ago.

I think that my overall points are:

We should be polite, kind and gentle with each other on the boards.

Don't condemn a whole bar without explaining why.

Peoples sexual preferences and requirements vary
enormously. As long as most everyone is enjoying themselves or at least agreeing to what is happening then lets let them get on with it without criticism.

Rant over.

I agree with WowPow that there is no need to disparage anyones sexual needs etc.

However it does add context when someone either praises or dislikes a particular bar,if we know what that person generally expects from the Boys he offs.

I too have had no luck at Jupiter . I have been there many times in the last few years and always enjoy the show and eye candy. But the 1/2 dozen times i succumbed and offed a boy were at best not memorable and at worst a complete disaster.

I always make it plain to the boy and mamasan I am a Top. Truth be told once I get in the room if the boy is affectionate and gives a good BJ, that will make for a successful encounter.

Of the 6 times 5 have been a disaster. That is the boy changing from affectionate etc in the bar to being unwilling to engage in anything sexual.

I have even had 2 boys tell me they didnt care if i gave them nothing, because they just wanted to get the off.

Although this has happened ocassionally at other bars, for the most part my offs have been pleasing etc.

Bottom line is where there is smoke there is usually fire. I will continue to go to the shows, because i find them well done in comparison to most. But I will never waste my time offing a boy from Jupiter again!!!1

I Have a slightly different perspective on all of this.

I can speak advanced Thai, I wait for the right time and then carefully turn the conversation to what I want. I explain, politely, in full detail, to ensure there is no misunderstanding, then I ask, politely, can or cannot? If there is agreement I pursue a little further, to get a confirmation. If there is any doubt from the boy, I carefully cancel the whole situation, ending with maybe another time etc., and politely suggest it would be better for him to look for another customer, and a 50 to 100Baht tip for his wasted time.

I've been here a long long time, I've become quite selective, I can wait until I get the agreement I want from another boy.

Now, If the boy agrees and also confirms that he is willing to fulfill my request, then at the hotel comes up with every excuse (most of which I/we have heard before), or if he lies there obviously intending to do nothing, then I politely tell him to take a shower and put on his clothes. I would probaly give 100 baht tip, a bit more if ne needs to take a taxi to return to the bar/go home.

I am being very honest when I say I have had this experience so many times with Tawan boys and Jupiter boys, that I have made my own decison 'no more'.

You might say, that's unfair to the rest of the boys in these bars, and maybe there is a valid point in this argument. Rightly or wrongly, in this situation I now have a gut feel that this seems to be the trend/ the norm in these place, and I don't intend to waste any more time or money in these places. It's my money, I'll use it in the way that works for me.

That's my view.

Thank you firecat for that clear and reasoned statement as to why Jupiter has been a bar unsuited to tops. I would worry about any bar where the boys lie as does the the Mamasan. I compliment you on your tenacity as I would not go back to a bar after 3 bad experiences and 5 or 6 is a significant proportion of their go-go staff. it must be reflection on the high quality of guys that they used to have.

I did once, many years ago, off a regular boy from Boyz Boyz Boyz and we went with friends to eat at White Night. The boy did not want to eat but when I went to the loo he had a tiny snack and I had to pay the full buffet price - nobody's fault and not much money but it grated.

The we went back to the hotel. The boy announced that he had to sleep. I told him he could go home and sleep so he did without fee. Then I went back to Boyz x 3 and told them and they offered another boy which I declined and received a polite refund of the off fee - with an eye to the heavens as if "what can one do with Thai boys".

Here was wowpow's original post:

If I misinterpreted from this that your requirements were relatively "easy" for the boys to comply with, then I apologize. It was not my intention to be "cruel", and I still don't know where you got any "cruelty" from what I posted. Obviously, you are a very sensitive soul!

I was at the Jupiter on 7/18. The show was an abbreviated version to what I've seen before. There was no nudity and there were only perhaps 20 boys. There were not that many customers and they were mostly Asian. Over all I was disappointed. I guess it's the low season blues because two nights later the show at Future boys did not live up expectations either. I was surprised to find the bars on Soi Twilight as slow as Pattaya.

"rubyhanoi - yes you repeat your dissatisfaction with the go-go boys of Jupiter but you don't say how many times you offed boys from there and in what they did not please"

Probably 10 times in the past 7 years. I always ask before offing and these guys basically didn't do what they said they would. This happens at other bars of course but not to the same extent as at Jupiter

After reading page 3 of this thread would I be wrong in concluding that most bars in 2007,especially Jupiter and Tawan,are not worth visiting if,as a customer,you require oral,anal and enthusiasm ? To succeed it seems you need a certain flair with language and luck with honesty also.

I like these places and in 2001 and 2004 (the only times I have offed ) the results were satisfactory.Surprisingly so but both times the trade were keen to get back to their own lives or second customer.A recent visit to one BBB group bar by a friend and subsequent BBB Inn orgy for three-2 dancers and customer-resulted in satisfaction for him and I have been told by a Thai punter that he too met a guy who was into it.

Thanks to posters for being so forthcoming in these,shall we say,private matters that get them through the night.I enjoy quiet sensuality sometimes and other times vigour so I read them with interest.

It all comes down to finding a compatible boy, regardless of the bar. I prefer to let the boy come to me...or at least establish strong eye contact/ smiles / signs before I even talk to one...then find out what he likes to do , will or wont do. That way I can honestly say have I had no real duds when it came to the action....and now I have a mix of regular boys I know enjoy sex with me, and still enjoy the thrill of discovering new talent. Speaking thai is more for fun....the body language and non verbal communication plus enough just thai /english will always get you through. Enjoy !

I'm baaaaack!
 

I am really surprised at the number of complaints about the guys at Jupiter. Admittedly I have not been to BKK for three years now but I never had a bad experience there before.

Maybe it's because i do what Biggles says. I smile at a guy I like and wait for him to come over. If he doesn't, then I smile at someone else. The way I see it, if the guy isn't at least interested enough to come sit and talk to me then I can't expect him to want to do very much with me, either.

PS
I can't wait to come to LOS again. Being celibate in Europe is unbelievably unspeakable!