But I know of some other bars (obviously I cannot state what percentage of all bars) where the mamasan get kick-backs from the boys. As I mentioned when I spoke of Cartier in Pattaya, ALL the boys who get off'd MUST pay the mamasan a set amount. In other bars I'm sure it's at least those boys who the mamasan promotes to customers who must in turn pay the mamasan something.

In the article the comment that this decision was based on greedy mamasans was pure speculation, so let's not elevate it to a position of fact. That sort of thing is best left to discussions of WMD and the Bush Administration.

Certainly some of the many massage places you've visited have minimum tips. Personally I would only go to a place like Hero or Senso where a minimum tip seemed justified by a nearly certain expectation of what you're getting.

I'm definitely not promoting Jupiter or defending their staff. If they are indeed as pushy and arrogant as a number of people suggest, then they may well implode on their greed & over-inflated egos.

I still think, in theory at least, that a truly upscale host bar operation that charged more because it provided a better quality of service would be welcome.

The concept appears to work for some of the massage places. There's still plenty of business for the lesser places.

I have been fortunate in finding some great guys in the various bars. I have a regular long term friend as well as some regular "occasional visitors" who I found in bars and now call on the phone when I want to see them. Once in awhile I get the urge for someone new, but I really dislike the search process, i.e. the tedious viewing of dispirited boys on stage in their underwear, the "what your name,""where you come from," and all that. When the urge for someone new comes to me, I'd like to eliminate as much of the hit-and-miss gogo bar shuffle as possible.If there were one or two high quality venues where success was more likely, I'd be willing to pay extra for the experience. If I never had to walk into another typical gogo bar again, I'd be quite happy... or at least if I didn't have to wander through a succession of them looking for the elusive champion amongst a field of also-rans.

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