I was reading with a lot of interest the now closed topic of Asians in Los Angeles Sex Clubs....I am a similar question...

I live in Dallas, Texas. I USED to enjoy going to Midtown Spa from time to time.....maybe one or two times each month. Now however I don't even go to this club as it has been almost completely taken over by
black people on friday and saturday nights. This would not be a problem for me if I found myself attracted to black people but I don't. The other problem is that the few white and Latin people who do go there are usually the subject of harassment by the blacks if we will not have sex with them. I am not interested and I have talked with others who are not interested either. Why do these people (blacks) feel the need to be so aggressive when we make it clear that we are not interested.

I dont want to be rude to these guys..and I certainly dont mind talking with or socializing with these black guys...but I am simply not interested in them sexually because I am just not attracted to them...

How can I get this point across if I decide to try this place again..?? Any suggestions..

PLEASE NO POSTS TO ME THAT I AM A RACIST...THAT IS NONSENSE...IT IS SIMPLY A MATTER OF SEXUAL ATTRACTION OR LACK OF SEXUAL ATTRACTION...IT IS NOT RACISM...

Thanks...

[This message has been edited by Mamo Verga (edited February 01, 2001).]

No, you are not a racist because you find black men sexually unappealing. Different strokes for different folks as the saying goes. Men of color, because of past racial discrimination, might perceive your non-sexual interest as racially-motivated. That perception has a way of reinforcing sterotypes among men of color, so the rejection on the basis of sexual attraction becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy not related to equal treatment, fairness, and opportunity in other areas of their lives.

With respect to the management and staff at the Midtowne Spa, the aggressive and harassing environment at that facility exists because the management allows it to exist. When management tolerates such an environment, it does so for strictly business reasons...the money.

If management of Midtowne Spa condones harassment as you have related, it is pointless to return again to this facility. Why waste your time and money at a facility that doesn't suit your needs?

I would not say you are a racist. However, it does strike me as odd that one can be totally "not into" a whole race! Black guys come in all shapes, sizes, skin tones, ehtnicity, etc...
To reject them ALL based on race does seem a little, er, over-selective. And your protestations of how "they" get mad when you won't give in to them, well, it doesn't sound good.
In the interest of full disclosure, let me say that I wish to hell I lived there!

I just re-read your post. I dunno, since you're anonymous here, is there not something more to this? Using the phrase "these people" may not be racist but does have a connotation of lumping all of them together like a species or something. It almost sounds like you'd rather they not be there. And why would they not be there?

Shit man, just find a big, buff guy with a big cock and get it on. You never know, could open up a whole new world for you.

A racist holds the belief they are racially superior to others not of their own race. Sexual attraction is often stated as personal preference or how we make distinctions in our dealings with others. If you exclude an entire race of people in making those distinctions, stated as personal preference, the underlying belief of racial superiority comes into play or focus. I wouldn't worry about being called a racist if you arn't sexually atttracted to black men as a matter of personal preference. However, if the basis of your personal preferrence is rooted in a belief of racial superiority, you are indeed a racist.

Gimme a break. How many people actually view themselves as racist? The average racist, outside a sexual context, makes the same kind of argument: he just wants to associate with his own kind, he's got nothing against black people, just a preference for white companions.

Most of us are smart enough to see the racist undergirding of that argument. It's not any different in a sexual context. Just because you don't think your "preference" is racist doesn't mean it isn't an expression of broad cultural racism. By that I mean to say I don't think YOU are a racist in a personal sense but that you certainly are living out a particular form of the culture's racism.

Intersting that you fetishize Latinos. Many black men complain of the same experience with white men -- being fetishized. They regard this as another racist expression, since it usually involves stereotyping.

N2's advice is good. In the same way you address any other racial "preference," try actually becoming sexual with a black guy. You might find yourself wondering why you bothered to cling to your "preference" so long.

Sexual preference based on race or ethnicity is not racism unless there is an underlying belief of superiority. It might be politically incorrect to state your preference or sexual attraction on that basis alone, but it hardly qualifies you as a racist --- unless you have a belief in racial superiority. If we followed Bongo's thinking, we might make the same analogy about Gay males who are sexually attracted only to males as a gender class. I would not suggest Gay males are sexist because they are only sexually attracted to males as a gender class. However, you would be a sexist if you believed in gender superiority. Being gay does not mean we are sexist if we are only attracted to our own gender.

Hmmm ... interesting reading. Although I enjoy sexual relationships with anyone with the right attitude and right equipment, I have to confess to a decided and unqualified preference for Black men. Especially being oral with them. I don't know why this should be, and I'm not altogether sure that it developed conciously, but with the passage of time I'm able to step back and recognize it as a genuine preference, and was actually surprised when I first came to this realization.

Nevertheless, there it was, and I don't really spend a lot of time questioning it or analyzing it from a political perspective. Until now, that is ...

IrishRedHead
Cruiser posted February 03, 2001 11:30 AM

"Sexual preference based on race or ethnicity is not racism unless there is an underlying belief of superiority. It might be politically incorrect to state your preference or sexual attraction on that basis alone, but it hardly qualifies you as a racist --- unless you have a belief in racial superiority."

Gimme a break. I don't buy that argument anymore than the specious comparison of racial attraction to same-sex attraction. The two are not the same.

Sexual attraction is an undenuable orientation. It is not a preferance or choice. Racial selections in our sexual partners are most definately a choice based on preferances. You cannot compare the two without blurring out important distinctions.

Christ.

Verga, putting aside whether you're attracted to black men or not, you've definitely got some issues with race. How else to explain:
(a)your describing blacks as having "taken over" the place on weekends(kind of sounds like a sinister plot doesn't it?);
(b)that wonderful spot in your post where, after whining about blacks for a whole paragraph, you add "blacks" in parentheses just so we don't dare get confused and think that "these people" refers to anyone but those troublemaking negroes.

No, not being attracted to black men doesn't necessarily make you a racist. And no one likes overly aggressive cruisers. But you could have told us your whole sad story either without mentioning the race of your "tormentors," or mentioning it only in passing, seeing how as a non-racist (I know because you said so), race doesn't matter to you. But, alas, you managed to make race the focus of your rant about overly aggressive behavior. Seems to me that this tells the real story here.

[This message has been edited by AssMan (edited February 04, 2001).]

So true, Assman. It's the old "Now I'm not a racist, but I have noticed that blacks tend to...." in a sexual context.

Red, comparing sexual orientation, which involves gender, to race, which involves skin color, is quite a leap. The one speaks to sexual IDENTITY based on a foundational and usually immutable feature of attraction: genital sexuality. The other speaks to a feature of a partner, skin color, whose added meaning in this case is, except as "preference," a noticeably inarticulated argument for exclusion. And that is consistent with the dominant culture's general perspective toward black people. If you want to regard that as coincidence, be my guest.

Nobody has really argued with anyone's right to exert a preference or prejudice in this context. What we notice is the effort to sanitize "preference" of "prejudice," as if the former is by definition uninfluenced by the latter.

Personally, I think the problem of prejudice in this context is above all what it costs the prejudiced person.




[This message has been edited by bongo (edited February 04, 2001).]

You said it.

The overwhelming consensus is that you are born gay or predisposed to being gay due to genetic factors. While the nature versus nurture argument rages on, it seems doubtful that any majority of people would choose to be gay in a world where homophobia and fag bashings still exist. I would not call being gay a choice or a preference. It is an unshakable sexual orientation.

This other stuff -- who we like having sex with, Top or Bottom, etc. -- is all about choices and preferences. It is not the same thing as sexual orientation. It is influenced by environment, subjective experiences, prejudice, conditioning, and societal factors. Why try to white-wash it with denial or specious comparisons to sexual orientation?

Take responsibility for your choices. Acknowledge what you have no control over -- like being gay. You do have control over your sexual choices and your choice of partners.

If you don't like Black guys, there is a reason for it that has something to do with your perceptions of Black men. Period.

Thanks for your replies guys...even though only SunnDogg actually addressed my actual question.

I have been reading the replies over the past few days with interest. The largest point which comes out in these posts from everyone with the exception of SunnDogg is that in your opinion I am a racist because I dont want go get on my knees in front of a black guy. I dont understand the tendency on these
boards to find fault in questions but never answer the question asked....I intentionally asked that the question of racism not be addressed. I am not concerned with this. I am concerned with the focus of
my question. How to continue to go to this
place and have a good time with the individuals to whom I am attracted and who find me attractive...and politely reject those to whom I am not attracted. I often read posts on these boards and find certain people try to "over-intellectualize" the subject at hand. The replies to my post have proven to be no exception.

I know that the easiest was to handle this is
to simply give up this formerly fun cruising place and find another place. I could do this but I would rather continue to go to Midtown from time to time as there are still a few men there to whom I find myself attracted. The problem as I stated before is that there are some black guys at the Midtown Spa (baths) who will not take no for an answer. There are many black guys there who are polite and no problem. I am not interested in sex with them and many accept this with a polite, "Thanks, have a good evening", etc....but many like to follow me around and try to disrupt anything that I get into...These are the guys with whom I have a problem. I would also have a problem if this behavior were from a white, Latino or Asian guy as well. I dont appreciate this type of aggression behavior in any race.

I was at Midtown last friday evening and had a good time as I took a Latino man to my private room and we had fun for about two hours. I was there for about thirty minutes before this guy arrived. I would say in a very unscientific way that there were about sixty guys there...of these sixty about fifty were black, six Latinos and four white guys. I was approached several times by black and white guys. I only problem that night was one black guy who followed me around. He kept knocking on my door when I was in the room with the Latino....why? He should have found someone else....This is just an example. I fully expect someone..maybe Bongo...to say that I should have opened the door and had sex with him to satisfy his FETISHIZATION of white people. I completely disagree....I opened the door and asked him to go away and leave us alone. I finally had to tell him that I would get the management involved if he continued his behavior. At last another black guy saw what was happening and told the first one to leave me alone. At this time I think the "problem guy" left as I did not hear from his again (Thank God)..

I am 38 years old, dark blond hair and green eyes. I am 5'9" tall and my weight is 175 pounds. There is very little fat on my body and I am muscular and tone. I do work out usually four times each week. The reason I add this information is so I can explain that one of the reasons that I try to take very good care of my body is so that I will be attractive to guys that I find attractive. I do not take the time and spend the effort and money to make myself attractive and available to guys to whom I am not attracted just so they will be satisfied.

One of the replies noted that I used the
phrase "these people"...Well, it is "these
people" to whom I am referring. What is the
problem with this choice of words? There is
no problem. Perhaps I could have said "these guys" or "these invididuals"...whatever but
to people who hold the belief that any white people who does not want sex with a black guy is a problem, nothing would have been correct...I sometimes find it amusing that these politically correct people who seem to exist solely for the purpose of apologizing for "the past", post to every board in which they can cause some type of controversy. I think these guys would have me on my knees in front of every black guy in the place...then paying them the reparations some seem to want from the slave days. What a joke!

To the point for fetishes. I do prefer Latino men. I greatly enjoy them. I love the culture, music, language and of course,
the men. These is nothing in this world that I enjoy more than to travel to Spanish speaking countries (with the exception of Spain). This may be a fetish in the clinical sense of the word, but I certainly do not reject other white guys, Asians, Indians, etc. The reason I find it necessary to address this is because one of the posters said that "many blacks are fetishized by white guys". There is probably some truth to this, but there are also a large number of black guys who will only have sex with white guys. They want NOTHING to do with their own race. Are these guys also racists? Following some of the so-called "logic" from posts I have read, the only answer is YES...but with the double-standard with is alive and well with regards to race relations in American in these days....the white guy would be called the racist and the black guy....well, maybe he is only trying to get in touch with something....some excuse will be made to make the white guy the culprit and the black guy a victim....there is such non-sense going around these days...

Using the words "take over the place"...What
should I say...?? Five years ago on a Friday or Saturday night is was about 15% black. Now it is about 80% black. I could have used some large words to achieve the same meaning...but why..when what they have done is taken over the place. That is what has happened. I strongly view it is a negative development, no question about that... As the percentage of blacks has increased the percentage of white and other non-blacks has decreased largely because of the agressive behavior of some of the blacks..and the other people are going other places.

"Sad Story".....well, I have to agree that it is a sad story. In Dallas, Texas...which is run as a police state when a great cruising place is "lost" it is a sad story. I am so happy that you agree with me..(LOL)...

I would still like to know if anyone has any suggestions as to how to deal with agressive black guys in Midtown Spa. Please dont give me lines and lines of narrative about race relations and racism because I am not attracted to blacks. I do not find any problem with this. If anyone has any reasonable ways to say "NO" to these overly
agressive black guys, please let me know.

Thanks..

You said you tried saying no politely. Good. That's the logical first approach. Have you tried being rude? This is all some people respond to. Do you get a private room when you're there? That allows you to close the door on guys, which I know from experience helps to get the message across.

I hope this addresses your question to your satisfaction. I've already said my piece on what's being stated between the lines in your posts. Good luck.

Thank you AssMan for your reply which is logical and suggest steps which I already take.......and for your comment for "reading
between the lines"...it seems that you are reading something between the lines which
does not exist but I know that it is useless to tell you this as you already have your mind made up....

You know the old saying....I think it applies to you with regards to my original post...so
"I will not confuse you with the facts"....

Thanks again...