Always so interesting (& down right funny) to read these threads where the only crime committed has been "polyannas" sticking their eloquent noses into other people's business.
The whole question of Mamo Verga's post, dudes, is how to handle obnoxious morons in a gay cruising establishment! HELLO!!! If y'all quit trying to be the "Hardy Boys" of phsychology and just answer the poor man's question, the world would be a better place! Y'all are just as obnoxious as those trolls who can't take "no" for an answer.

Here's my answer, Mamo Verga: These people (whatever their race) don't "get it" in life. They've never been able to have proper social manners, never been able to respect other people's spaces, and have never been able to assimilate to the crowd around them. And ever since the '60's Flower Child movement (where we should accept all things and love our fellow man), these people have been able to get away with their social disgraces on the basis that the world should accept EVERYONE! Well, you know what, dudes???? Sometimes you just have to NOT love your fellow man & tell him to his face what a social misfit he is....whatever his race. And when they cry "foul! racism!"...it proves that they truly don't "get it" in life.

So, alas, you may have to give up your favorite bathhouse...for the time being. There's always something just around the corner for a gay man in Dallas. (Try Neiman Marcus);-) I know I'VE had to find a different cruising place ever now & then. But, ultimately, the crowds change, the morons are replaced by other morons, the studs are replaced by other studs. And life continues to be full of analytical bullsh....ers.

And that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

You know...I think that RockHard and SunDogg
have some sense...They can answer a
question..

Thanks guys...I appreciate it....maybe
you are right and I must go someplace else for a while....anyway...its been fun...

Take care everyone...

You are so full of it Mama Vergo! You only seem to like it when guys agree with you...
you seem to think there is an arbiter of good taste who will only allow you to see the posts that you deem acceptable to your fragile sensibilities. You made this same bullshit case on another board. Maybe you could ask Keith to kindly delete the offending ads. And while he's at it, maybe give the owner of your favorite baths a call and have them stop letting so many pesky blacks in. Golly, how's a guy supposed to have a good time?!

Poor Mama Vergo, he has to put up with those pesky people who just scratch and claw to get at his perfect little torso! You know how to stop their behavior. Stop going. But no, you think you are entitled to getting "our" place back from all those black men.

You are the one who singled out blacks for special disapproval. Why do you expect everybody to just jump on your bandwagon?

If you didn't expect comments like this, you would have asked for "advice" in the Sex Advice section, not the sexual politics section.

Now, according to another cruiser's post, we should lump 60's flower children into the same undesirable sack of unwanted garbage as Black people. No political agenda or bias there, huh?

If I were the Sundogg guy or the Rockhard cruiser, I certainly would not consider praise from anyone who makes such statements anything to be proud of in the least.

Christ.

LOL.....why is it that some people, namely
the last two posters, just never seem to "get it"...???

My original question was one of both advise and also politcal in a sense....The reason
I placed it here...which should be clear to anyone with enough logic to consider it...is because this is where the LA Asian question was located.

As far as Pesky.....this is an understatement. The ones to whom I am referring are not pesky...they are aggressive, pushy, insulting...they obstruct
the halls and put their hands on people who do not welcome it..and when you ask them to
stop suddenly the "racist" term is used...I
guess they believe that since I dont want sex with them and especially not when it is almost a "forced" situation...that I am a racist. This is nonsense.

I should not have to stop going to this place. I should be able to go there and have a good time with the person of my choice. Everyone else should be able to do the same thing....as long as the person of choice is willing.......I AM NOT WILLING...

This has gone far enough. No one with the exception of the two intelligent individuals have decided to address the issue at hand...and this has again proven to be a session of a group apologizing for rude behavior on the part of these black guys....


So many people on here....everyone in fact except for TWO people...failed to address the question at hand and instead decided to discuss racial issues. This issue is much more than race. It is a question of a huge
double-standard.

"This has gone far enough. No one with the exception of the two intelligent individuals have decided to address the issue at hand..."

What would that issue be? Rudeness? Racism? Your right to go where you want without having to deal with those undesirable others?

Did you ever stop to think that there might be other people out there who feel the same about you cruising as you feel about being bothered by those "pesky" Black guys?

My point? People here are addressing the issues. They are offering different perspectives on this topic. You have made it clear that, in your opinion, certain viewpoints don't hold any value with your own way of thinking. I get this loud and clear. Maybe others do as well.

Do you "get it?"

Jake.....You really are getting to the point were your posts are laughable....

"What would that issue be? Rudeness? Racism? Your right to go where you want without having to deal with those undesirable others?

Did you ever stop to think that there might be other people out there who feel the same about you cruising as you feel about being bothered by those "pesky" Black guys?"

This quote is from your last post....

It again shows that you just don't seem
to understand the subject at hand.

I did not use the term Pesky....someone else
introduced that term into the conversation. I would never have used so mild a term to apply to the people that I have mentioned. As I have said time and time again the "problem guys" are a small minority of the blacks at Midtown Spa.....maybe 10%....but they are
not pesky...they are a nuisance. There are also some white guys and Latino guys who have behavior that can be a nuisance as well...but they will usually leave me alone when I ask once or twice. The black guys in question will never leave me alone...and they do the same thing to other white and Latino guys there.....Now, what do YOU fail to understand.

These guys will not have sex with one another.....and the dont seem to get much from the white/Latino guys either...but they are there to ruin any fun that the other guys can have....they are content to be a nuisance...and again before you get on your high-horse....I am not making a statement about all the black guys....Many of them are very polite and I enjoy having a conversation with them...I am referring to a small minority, maybe 10% of the group, who are nothing but trouble-makers...

You seem to think that I am a racist which is
totally off the mark because I don't like to have by cock grabbed after I have told someone that I am not interested. I dont like to have the hall blocked so some guy that I have turned down can try to kiss me...I dont like to have some guy that I have refused to knock on my door every three minutes while I am enjoying myself with some other person. I dont like being pushed against the wall by a person that I find undesirable.......Do you get the point. These are things that have happened to me...so I have avoided this place...and have
tried very very hard to be as polite as possible to the people in question.

I plan to go again soon...and I will tell them to get the hell out of my way....and the knee will also work.......and this has nothing to do with race other than the fact that the offenders in this situation happen to be black.

I am not scared of any problems...I can take care of myself.....and I have had offers many times I was there from other guys....white, Latino and black....to help me deal with the nuisance guys if I wanted or needed the help...so you should be able to understand that the other black guys there do not appreciate their behavior (that of the troublemakers) either.

I understand that you will reply with a note which will be an excuse for their behavior...I expect that....There are a lot
of white guys out there who make excuses for
unacceptable behavior on the part of black guys. You would NEVER accept this type of behavior from white guys...but you seem to have a double standard...as I said before...the double standard is alive and well in 21th century America and seems to be
growing stronger everyday.

I will agree with you on one point. There are guys that I have been interested in and they were not interested in me. It happens frm time to time...but not often as I usually like Latino men and most of them seem to like me. When I approach a man and he is not interested in me...my reply...."thanks, have a good evening"...and I leave him alone..PERIOD....I dont follow him around...I dont interfere with his activities with other guys...I dont block his room..or keep him from getting down the hall.

Hopefully now you will understand.

My question has been answered.....I have
received several email messages from men who
can understand the confusion that several of you seem to have about this matter....since this is not acutally a matter of race..but a matter of bad manners..and unacceptable behavior......I have my answer and I know how to deal with this from now own.....and I will not allow these guys....to get in my way anymore...

I thank everyone who has emailed me with suggestions as to how to deal with this...without having to give up a place that "can" be fun....and has a lot of potential...

Take care.

"Jake.....You really are getting to the point were your posts are laughable....
I did not use the term Pesky....someone else
introduced that term into the conversation. I would never have used so mild a term to apply to the people that I have mentioned. As I have said time and time again the 'problem guys' are a small minority of the blacks at Midtown Spa.....maybe 10%....but they are
not pesky...they are a nuisance. There are also some white guys and Latino guys who have behavior that can be a nuisance as well...but they will usually leave me alone when I ask once or twice. The black guys in question will never leave me alone...and they do the same thing to other white and Latino guys there.....Now, what do YOU fail to understand."

Nothing. Thanks for clarifying things. LOL!!!

Thank god he doesn't "over-analyze" this issue. Yes, I think I understand fully too.

We only think that we understand, Bongo. Remember, according to Mamo, only SunDogg, RockHard, and he are enlightened enough to fully appreciate the real issues involved here.

The rest of us don't count -- kinda like the Black guys who get in his way of having a good time.

Posted by RockHard:
"Here's my answer, Mamo Verga: These people (whatever their race) don't 'get it' in life. They've never been able to have proper social manners, never been able to respect other people's spaces, and have never been able to assimilate to the crowd around them. And ever since the '60's Flower Child movement (where we should accept all things and love our fellow man), these people have been able to get away with their social disgraces on the basis that the world should accept EVERYONE! Well, you know what, dudes???? Sometimes you just have to NOT love your fellow man & tell him to his face what a social misfit he is....whatever his race."

In following your own advice, I am telling you to your face what a social moron you and others like you are, Rockhard. Being the enlightened individual that you claim to be, I am sure that you will be able to accept this without crying "foul," "racism," or over-analyzing the issue.

[This message has been edited by Jake2001 (edited February 10, 2001).]

Let me see if I can make some sense out of this discussion: We're talking about sexual attraction as it relates to skin color and ethnicity. But we also seem to have other variables at work as well: Aggressive and overly ambitious black guy at a men's spa won't take "no" for an answer from this white guy who's already scoring with his Latino trick. White guy is pissed that black guy doesn't have the courtesy to politely leave him alone. Second black guy intervenes to tell the first black guy to get the fuck off. White guy also notices an unusually high number of African-American customers at the spa on the weekends and would like to know why. White guy tells us that he's not racist, he just has a sexual and romantic preference for other white men, Native Americans and Latino guys...his dick does not throb for African-American men. He also says that he has no problem with black guys as friends (not sexually), neighbors and at work because he's not racist. He points out that there are many blacks who are not sexually attracted to other blacks...and some whites who aren't into other white guys. He feels unfairly targeted because of his preferences....

And you know what, he's absolutely right! His attraction is the by-product of a society still not at terms with the beauty and erotic qualities of the African male (this includes African-American guys). When I say "African," Middle Eastern and Mediterranean guys (such as the lighter-skinned Egyptians, Saudi Arabians, Libyians or similar men) are not included here because they closely resemble their European/Asian brothers. When I talk about the "African" it's the one that you can truly see: Eyes, nose, hair, skin tones and other distinct features. For way too long our "whitewashed" American society has considered such African features as unappealing and less than erotic...there's much work to be done in changing this European-Asian mindset which had taken over our society for more than 300 years! We can't blame this white man for his "preferences," we should place the blame on our society, which has fostered an environment of racial separation and inequality for so long! Until we all live in a truly diverse society, where racial and ethnic differences are seen as equally beautiful and sexual, we will always be reminded that sexual and romantic attractions based on race and ethnicity are an unfortunate fact of life. Whether anyone agrees with me or not, true love and true sexual attraction knows no skin color or nationality.... It can be unlearned, which is a far different horse from sexual orientation!

[This message has been edited by blackguy469 (edited February 17, 2001).]

Posted by BlackGuy:
"Until we all live in a truly diverse society, where racial and ethnic differences are seen as equally beautiful and sexual, we will always be reminded that sexual and romantic attractions based on race and ethnicity are an unfortunate fact of life."

I think you nailed it.

BlackGuy469: I agree with most of what you're saying but you make a great error in lumping white guys and Asians together. We don't look alike or share the same culture or necessarily have the same tastes in men. If you want to see proof of the kind of mean-spiritedness, ignorance and downright vitriol directed at Asian gays, search back for a thread on why Asians should be banned from sex clubs in LA. Pretty eye-opening and sad stuff.

Posted by sandog:
"...but you make a great error in lumping white guys and Asians together. We don't look alike or share the same culture or necessarily have the same tastes in men. If you want to see proof of the kind of mean-spiritedness, ignorance and downright vitriol directed at Asian gays, search back for a thread on why Asians should be banned from sex clubs in LA. Pretty eye-opening and sad stuff."

Yep. These threads are bringing up a lot of what constitutes the arguably justifiable hostility that other oppressed groups feel towards White gay men. There are many Black people (straight and gay), Asians (straight and gay), women, and others who strongly resent when White gay men compare their experience of perceived oppression to other non-White/non-male groups. The comments made against Blacks and Asians in these threads gets to the core of a lot of the issue.

White men, gay or straight, lead comparatively privileged lives than others in America. Take a look at the entitlement that screams out of the comments made against Blacks or Asians who are described as invading and disrupting formerly White (mostly) gay cruising environments. I suspect that the people doing the complaining about the non-White cruisers may not even be aware of how they sound to others.

This is what comes from being a member of a sexually oppressed culture (gays) while enjoying the benefits of being part of the dominant culture in America (White men).

White gay men do suffer oppresson. But, their experience does not compare to that of say a Black gay man, or an Asian gay man, or even a Black lesbian. There are differences in culture and experience that need to be appreciated and acknowledged.

Dismissing all of this with a "preference" expanation fails to deal with anything effectively.