I'm posting under this name because I don't want to post under my regular name (i'm not all about sex lol) so I just wanted to clear that up before I get started.

OK here is the deal.

I met a guy who I REALLY dig and he digs me back in a big way. However, he is HIV +. I don't have a problem with that nor would I let that get in the way of me wanting to be with him, I think that is a really shady thing to do, I wouldn't want someone not wanting to be with me because I was positive, if I was.

He is 29 and has been + for like 8 years now and seems to have a lot of knowledge about the illness. He has been involved in a lot of HIV things, studies, etc. This is my question.

He told me that oral sex has been proved 100 percent safe even if you have HIV, that the other person can not get it. I like to swallow cum, esepcially with someone who I like a lot! He says that is safe as well. Of course anal sex I know you must wear a condom or your really taking a chance there but what about this oral thing?

Is he giving me correct information or is he just saying this to me because he wants us to do everything? I would hate to think that he would lie to me, because I like him a lot and he seems to feel the same way about me but I have a hard time trusting people and there is just something about what he is telling me that is not setting right with me.

Can anyone help? We haven't had sex yet, we hang out, cuddle, talk and all that, and yeah we make out but no sex yet. Not because I have been scared or whatever, just because he says he wants to get to know me better before that, he doesn't want it to be cheap he wants it to really mean something when we finally do take that next step.

I hope someone can give me some advice here.

Thanks.

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Wow... This is heartbreaking on so many different levels.

I guess the first and most important thing to address is that this dude is NOT correct in stating that it has been proved that oral sex is 100% safe and that a negative partner cannot get HIV from oral sex with a positive partner. THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE!

There is NO SUCH THING AS 100% safe. Nor have there been any studies or research or data which suggests this.

It is important, however, that you keep in mind that no one here can say whether or not this guy is actually LYING to you. It's obvious that we can't read his mind or accurately make assumptions at his intentions. He may simply be misinformed and means no harm.

Unfortunately, the other side of the coin is that if he IS lying, he's despicable and dangerous.

I do not envy your position. You have to determine what's what and decide upon your course of action. You have some difficult choices to make.

Let's touch on a few things of some importance that might at least give you an idea of where to start. You will need to commit yourself to some time and research if you intend to pursue this relationship. There are some things you will need to keep in mind.

1) You have asked one of the most common and also one of the most difficult questions with regard to safer sex and HIV transmission: the question of how safe is oral sex. You will hear a wide variety of responses to this. Look in the CFS archives and read the thread about oral sex safety. Pay special attention to what Dr. Danny writes there. TRUST HIM. You can also go to www.thebody.com and look through the site: it's rather large, prepare to spend a bit of time reading all you can. The CDC website also has some decent info, but it's kind of been "sanitized for our protection" by the government, so it isn't as explicit as we might hope. You can go to online HIV+ chat rooms and POLITELY ask the occupants if they will discuss some issues with you. One caveat: these guys are NOT always in chat to discuss their disease at length -- sometimes they just want to have some good conversation about other topics. If you meet with resistance, just move along. You may find a few guys willing to chat privately with you.

2) Rest assured that you CAN get HIV from oral sex. Exactly how likely this is has never been determined to any degree of certainty, but we DO know that oral is "less risky" than anal. Probably a LOT less risky. But it is NOT "100% safe" as this guy suggests it is. DO NOT BELIEVE THAT FOR AN INSTANT. You MUST be aware that you ARE taking a risk by having unprotected oral sex. If you choose to accept that risk, then you have made your own choice in the matter. But do not be mislead.

3) Swallowing is MOSTLY a moot topic. It is exposure to semen in the oral cavity where the risk occurs. Spitting or swallowing doesn't matter much. Stomach acid will kill HIV, but if infection is to occur, it is going to happen in the mouth. Spitting probably also doesn't matter much. Yet these things are relative. There are many, many factors which come into play here. How high is the viral load in the semen? Has there been repeated exposure? How healthy is your mouth? Has the cum been in your mouth a "long" time or have you spit or swallowed more quickly? These things matter a lot -- and they also matter very little. Sucks, doesn't it? There's no definitive answer here, except to say that YES, a risk DOES exist -- it is lower than unprotected anal, but NOT completely safe by any stretch of the imagination.

4) HIV + and "healthy" is a term often used today. It means a person is not suffering yet from symptoms. That's wonderful. It usually also means that his viral load is pretty low, thanks the the medications. The lower the viral load, the better the chance that a negative person would leave an encounter and remain negative. But this does NOT mean there is a time when HIV + people are NOT contagious. HIV is ALWAYS contagious. ALWAYS. DO NOT FORGET THAT! HIV is MORE contagious immediately after infection, when the virus is multiplying rapidly in the body, and also at the end-stage of disease, when the immune system is nearly destroyed. In the interim period, there will be fluctuations, but there is NEVER a time when there is NO risk -- you can ALWAYS still get it no matter how small the viral load is. Viral load readings mean that conventional testing cannot pick up much virus at all -- but that does NOT mean there is NO virus there. It is always there -- just in very tiny amounts per any given sample size. Understand?

5) You may think he knows a lot about his disease, but apparently he has missed a few very important facts, especially with regard to the safety of his partners. Just because he may have been involved in studies or clinical trials or whatever doesn't make him a doctor or a scientist. When you live a disease, it is best if you educate yourself about it so you can live a better life and take an active role in your treatment -- probably he has experience with this. But it doesn't mean he knows everything.

6) He was at least honest with you about his status. That's good. It lends some credence to the possibility that he is NOT purposely trying to trick you -- but he IS still incorrect to state that oral is 100% safe.

7) You and he need to have some LONG talks about all of this. If he's unwilling to do this, he's not worth a relationship. If he cares about you, he should be MORE than happy to put you at ease, get educated together with you, and make sure YOU remain safe and healthy at all times. Anything less is unacceptable.

8) NEVER, EVER allow yourself to feel so much pity that you do things which jeopardize your own well-being. Though it may be admirable of you to understand that being HIV + doesn't make someone a pariah, you cannot let your desire to perform altruistic acts bring you harm. Kindness and understanding and compassion are wonderful qualities to share and desire -- but you need to love YOURSELF, too. You must think of your OWN health and safety at all times. DO NOT LET POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DICTATE YOUR SEXUAL BEHAVIOR.

9) If you get involved in this relationship, you will need to prepare yourself for all sorts of small and not-so small details that come along with HIV. Right now, most likely you are not involved with the day to day details of what this disease is really all about. But you soon will be. This can be mentally difficult to handle sometimes. Are you prepared for that?

10) Also, if you do get involved here, you will need to be tested for HIV on a regular basis no matter how safe you think your sexual acts may be. Are you ready for that, too? I'd personally recommend testing every three to six months when involved in a sexually active relationship with a poz guy. Can you handle it?

11) Being just friends isn't necessarily a bad thing, either. If it doesn't work out with the two of you for whatever reason, it doesn't mean you must exit this man's life and never see him again. You can still be a supportive and loving friend to him. Just keep that in mind. Everyone can use a new friend from time to time.

12) Don't jump down his throat and accuse him of lying -- I'm repeating that we can't judge his actions based on what you've written here because that's very important. Sit down and talk together. If he takes great offense at the suggestion to do so, I'd smell a rat and be extra cautious.

Summing it up... YES, you can get HIV from oral sex and exposure to semen. It is best to NOT expose yourself to semen at all if you are going to have unprotected oral sex. End of story. If you DO expose yourself to semen, you ARE at risk. Swallowing, not swallowing -- probably doesn't matter at that much. It's the semen in the mouth that makes the most difference... most likely.

It's good neither of you have rushed into things so far. It shows caring on both sides. It shows some intelligent reasoning going on. Both of you should be commended for that.

Continue in the quest for further knowledge -- BOTH of you. He IS wrong about what he told you, but yes... oral is LESS risky than anal. That's about the only definitive thing we can say.

Best of luck to you both.

There are lots of folks here who will speak to you privately via email if you have specific questions, myself included. What I wrote here is kind of basic and repetitive; this comes up often. Details can be supplied, but don't expect rock-solid numbers or statistics for every given sex act. These numbers, while they CAN be found here and there, don't mean shit when put to the real world test of highly flexible human sexuality. I'm going out of town on Sunday, however, and cannot respond to email until the end of next week.

Take it easy.

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I agree with Scruffy 100 % . His response is in agreement with current reasearch.

Dr Danny where are u??

__________________
40 something, 6' 175 brn/brn hairy looking for other married wm or younger guys to play.

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Yeah, I'm here, just found this one.

This is the scariest posting I have ever read on this BB.

Scruffy said it all, in a somewhat long winded way.

I would like to think that the partner is just misinformed, and god knows, there is a HELL of a lot of misinformation out there. But he may very well be malicious. That is something Blowin is going to have to figure out for himself.

You can become infected from oral sex. It is a much more dangerous activity than shaking hands, or jerking eachother off.

It is a much safer activity than others. There is a big difference between "safe" and "safer" Which is why I choose to believe the infected partner is misinformed. We all hear what we want to hear, and what Blowin wants to hear is that even though ass fucking is dangerous, blow jobs aren't.

There is no reason why you cant suck the guy if he has a condom on. The don't smell great, they dont taste great, but they certainly will bolter your degree of protection.

I don't want to get into a longwinded discussion of what constitutes safe activities, that has been written about ad nauseum. Look it up.

Blowin, have fun with the guy, but please, don't let him cum in you, anywhere, or on you. Think of raw, fresh semen and HIV as rabies, and you will be fine.

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Me? Long-winded? GET OUT! I'm so utterly offended. My ego is shattered; I won't be able to get an erection for two weeks now!



No, seriously... Doc can tease me anytime, or give me a prostate exam, or both, whatever he prefers.

To be honest, I had considered typing in a very terse response here, something along the lines of: "Yes, the guy is wrong. Oral sex has risk."

But as we have noted, this is a disturbing post for many reasons.

I didn't want to moralize at length on the underlying problem here at the time. Still don't. You guys can have at it if you want. It IS an important topic for discussion, though.

I'm guessing this kid is one who has never lived in a world without HIV. He has made assumptions and learned what he knows from dubious sources, gossip, word of mouth, etc. Very dangerous stuff going on out there, guys...

Do keep that in mind. It is SO important to educate the kids today. Some of the older dudes, too, but you know what I mean. Shit, if some folks who HAVE HIV don't know the facts... that's fucking SCARY SHIT.

We're gonna have to work to change that, I think.

I could have detailed a lot more, far beyond the little twelve-step program outlined above, but I thought it best to ease the kid into it.

He's got a LOT to consider.

So... now you get to enjoy the CFS boards without me for probably a whole four days! Maybe even five! I hope someone will talk and talk and talk and drive you all crazy in memory of me as I hit the road to visit the folks up north.

See ya again soon.

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Yes, there are many people who have sucked HIV+ dick for years and they have not gotten infected. However, there are also people who insist that they got HIV infected from sucking dick. I doubt they are all lying like President Bush does.

I have a file of numerous studies that have found the risk to be small to zero. Based on these studies, I guess that the risk is about 1 out of 2000 you will be infected. In other words, it might take several years to become infected.

All of these studies were unable to collect a large enough sample to accurately calculate the risk. Lack of research funds is the primary reason (thanks to homophobic Christian-Republican politicians who do not want to fund sex research).

The best estimate for oral sex risk was published in the following large scale study (you do not need to be a PhD to see that the risk is not zero):

The Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health
American Journal of Epidemiology - Volume 150 Number 3 - August 1, 1999

Per-Contact Risk of Human Immunodeficiency Virus Transmission between Male Sexual Partners. Eric Vittinghoff, John Douglas, Frank Judson, David McKirnan, Kate MacQueen, and Susan P. Buchbinder (Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, University of California San Francisco, 74 New Montgomery, Suite 600, San Francisco, CA 94105)

Am J Epidemiol 1999;150:306-11 August 1, 1999

The risk of human immunodeficiency virus (HIV) transmission from various types of homosexual contact, including oral sex, is of biologic, epidemiologic, and public health importance. The per-contact risk of acquiring HIV infection from specific acts was estimated in a prospective cohort study of 2,189 high-risk homosexual and bisexual men, conducted in San Francisco, California; Denver, Colorado; and Chicago, Illinois, in 1992--1994. During 2,633 person-years of follow-up, 60 seroconversions were observed. The estimated per-contact risk of acquiring HIV from unprotected receptive anal sex (URA) was 0.82 percent (95% confidence interval: 0.24, 2.76 percent) when the partner was known to be HIV+ and 0.27 percent (95% confidence interval: 0.06, 0.49 percent) when partners of unknown serostatus were included. There was heterogeneity in per-contact risk, with nine seroconversions occurring after only one or two episodes of URA. The per-contact risk associated with unprotected insertive anal and receptive oral sex with HIV-positive or unknown serostatus partners was 0.06 and 0.04 percent, respectively. URA accounted for only 15 percent of all reported sexual activity by seroconverters. As lower-risk practices become more common, they may play a larger role in propagating the epidemic and should also be addressed by interventions targeting high-risk homosexual and bisexual men.

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Teva, do you really want to trust a study that is now 5 years old, and based on information that is 3-5 years older than that?

As for bashing my christian-fundamentalist friends, do you really believe health care research is the sole pervue of the United States? You can't really believe that there is no HIV (or stem cell, etc) research going on anywhere else in the world, do you?

And frankly, if I had my druthers, I'd rather be in the company of a dozen Christian Fundamentalists as opposed to a dozen Muslim Fundamentalists any day. Based on one of your earlier postings, I suspect you would too...

And scruffy, you know I love you. And no, I'm not going to spoil the magic by massaging your prostate.

Danny

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A few very quick additions here:

The study cited STILL relies on the assumption that the men involved TOLD THE TRUTH AT ALL TIMES. This always allows for a much lager margin of error than is generally reported. Johns Hopkins or not, we need to take it with a grain of salt. There's some validity there, sure -- it is worth consideration, yes. But it is NOT, by any means, to be used as a sexual barometer or to quell fears about certain sexual behaviors.

I'm quite certain TevaBoi posted this with all good intentions. He and I don't agree politically all the time, but I can tell he's a good dude at heart. My concern with facts and figures is that sometimes they can give false confidence. If someone thinks to themselves: "Hey, 1:2000 is good odds, I'm going to go for it," that can get dangerous. We need to downplay the numbers.

If you put 1,999 blue coins in a bag, add one red coin, and reach in to pull one out, odds are extremely good you'll get a blue coin almost every time. But guys... SOMEDAY you'll get the red one. It might take 4,000 tries to do it. Or it might take ONE.

That is the reality of the risk. We all need to understand that.

I love science -- adore it, in fact. I love medicine. I love FACTS. But facts ALWAYS need to be practically applied in order to be fully utilized.

I bet we all agree on that.

I will not TOUCH the religious angle mentioned here!

And finally, Danny Doctor Sir -- we're better off being platonic buddies, so no worries. I hope it's OK with you if someday I maybe just pinch your nipples a little, though.

OK, guys. I'm outta here for real. See you in a few days.

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I've been poz for six months now and my wife is a saint, but that is another story.

My doctor, who reads all the literature and attends many conferences (he even took his nurse to the last one) has advised me that oral is safe. Yet he cautions me not to cum in my wife's mouth and for her to rinse with listerine. So even he knows it is only "safer", not safe. We use condoms for other sex.

Yes, I am "healthy", my viral load was undetectable the last test. However, that only means it is less than 50 copies per ml of blood, below the ability of the test to detect it. Might have been 0 (unlikely), might have been 45 copies. Besides, it was only good for the day it was drawn. Viral load can go up and down for a variety of reasons, getting my flu shot being a reason to go up(called a blip). On top of that, there have been no studies (that I can find) which have proven that viral load (vl) in the blood stream corillates to vl in other body fluids (mucus, semen, lymph, etc).

I've learned a lot about HIV in the last six months, but have a lot yet to learn. I found thebody web site useful, but much of it is dated. Even year old information is dated when it comes to HIV. A very good site I have found is www.TPAN.com, much more up to date. There you can find info on new medcations under study, and dare I say it, a cure (off topic here, some researchers think they may have found where the virus hides in the body and if so, they can attack it there or get it to "come out" in the open where it will be vulnurable to attack. Keeping my fingers crossed, but many years down the road).

Bottom line is you must protect yourself, DO NOT TRADE BODY FLUIDS WITH ANYONE!!

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I know you have criticized me before about bashing anti-gay Christian-Republicans, and I have not responded because I do not believe in fueling a flame war. But since I trust you, I will try to make a rational response here.

Until this last election, I was very open minded about my anti-gay Christian-Republican friends. However, it became clear during this last election that they are unwilling to compromise and be tolerant of me and my lifestyle as I am tolerant of their lifestyle.

Because of this, I agree with the gay conservative http://www.andrewsullivan.com that we can not continue to compromise on such an important point as our basic rights.

I have never said and I will never ever say that ALL Christian fundamentalists or ALL Republicans are anti-gay, but when I say anti-gay Christian-Republicans, I am including President Bush because I believe he is actively working against my best interest as a gay American.

If I was an abortion doctor, I would be afraid of Christian terrorists who regularly murder doctors and burn down their clinics. They are no different than the Muslim terrorists that kill people. Certainly, I believe that most Christian fundamentalists are happy just denying me equal rights instead of killing me. I think the same is true for Islamic fundamentalists.

Yes, research goes on elsewhere. There are some excellent studies that have been done in Britian about safe sex. However, as you probably know, the U.S. research budget dwarfs the rest of the world just like our defense/warmongering budget does.

In terms of your criticism of five year old research, I have access to a large university medical library, and I have been diligent in looking at all new research papers on oral sex safety. There have been some more recent ones, but they all have a much smaller sample size, or they have not been published in peer-reviewed journals. This study has held up since it has never been contradicted by any more recent study.

I think the best guess is that if you suck enough HIV-positive cocks, you will probably get infected, but it might take more years to happen then you want to suck cock. Also, you could be unlucky and get infected with the first cock you suck. This is what low probability means.

For example, here is a study on the safety of oral sex that appeared recently on the ABC News website. Of course, it has the basic problem of trying to extropolate from animal studies to humans:

================

http://www.advocate.com/new_news.asp...04/04-12/06/04
12/4/04-12/6/04

Study: Oral HIV infections may be more easily transmitted than previously thought
Researchers at the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center in Dallas have used an animal model to track how HIV may enter the body following oral exposure to the virus, and they conclude that oral HIV infections may be more easily transmitted than previously thought. In a study published in the December 3 edition of the journal AIDS, the researchers report tracking which tissues in the mouth and digestive tract of rhesus monkeys were first infected with the simian version of HIV when the virus was placed against the inside of the monkeys' cheeks and then swallowed, simulating HIV exposure through either breast milk from HIV-positive mothers to their infants or semen from oral sex.

Among the first tissues in which the simian version of HIV could be detected in the monkeys were the soft tissue in the mouth, esophagus, and tonsils, suggesting these sites became infected when initially exposed to the virus. Because the virus likely contacted these tissues when swallowed, the researchers believe HIV-infected milk or semen that enters the mouth and comes in contact with the tissues also could pose an infection risk.

At one day after oral exposure and initial infection, lymph nodes near the head and the neck began to show signs of viral infection. Digestive tract tissues below the esophagus did not show signs of HIV infection until four days after oral exposure--the same time as other tissues throughout the body--suggesting that stomach acids likely destroyed the virus when swallowed.

"It is clear from our study that the oral and esophageal mucosa and the tonsils are likely to be the most important sites of viral entry," said lead researcher Donald Sodora. "These tissues should be a major focus of any additional studies of HIV or SIV oral transmission."

Because SIV spreads so rapidly throughout the bodies of infected monkeys, antiviral therapies can be effective only if they are given within hours of exposure to the virus. Researchers hope the study further identifies one of the major problems facing the formulation of a vaccine: Any vaccine needs to overcome the rapid spread of the virus from the site of infections to tissues throughout the body.

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At coffee this morning I found a left-behind copy of the December 6 TIME Magazine. On the back page there's an essay by Michelle Cottie entitled, "The Battle is Over, but the War Goes On." Besically she says that while conservatives temporarily seem to have won the war on "moral issues," in the long run they'll lose the battle because of issue momentum. She is saying that change is primarily a matter of time. So eleven states voted gay marriage bans. It can't last. For more and more of the young folks, sexual identify is no big issue so eventually the Xian right
(that's right guys, let's keep the X in Xmas) will have to change. I've often wondered what the grandchilden of people like Bull Connor, Lester Maddox, George Wallace, etc. think of their forefathers. The same holds true for those Methodist ministers who expelled the Lesbian minister this week. Down the line they'll probably express wonder the same way we look at things such as the "separate but equal" southern laws and customs which operated up past the middle of the last century.

__________________
Being in late middle age, I especially enjoy fellows who prefer guys a tad older since we're often more interested in the total process including massages, etc, rather than simply quickies.

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Since this thread is drifting off the subject of oral sex safety, and to be polite, I have decided to post my other thoughts in the proper thread. Here is the link to it:

http://web.cruisingforsex.com/bb/sho...hreadid=250311

(web.cruisingforsex.com/bb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=250311)

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Received in my mail this morning:

Alcohol 'aids HIV cell infection'
Exposure to alcohol makes mouth cells more susceptible to HIV infection during oral sex, research has shown.
Earlier studies focused on how alcohol consumption increased the chance of someone having unprotected sex and therefore risking HIV infection.

But the team from the University of California at Los Angeles (UCLA) looked at how alcohol affected cells.

The research is published in the Journal of Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome.

Cells from the lining of the mouth, the epithelium, were obtained from people who were HIV negative.

The cells were then exposed to various concentrations of alcohol, similar to those found in beers, and then to a strain of HIV which had been modified with green fluorescent protein so that researchers could see if it infected cells.

It was found that epithelial cells which had been exposed to 4% of ethanol for 10 minutes showed between a three to six-fold greater susceptibility to infection from the HIV strain.

CD4 count

HIV attacks a particular type of white blood cells called CD4+ cells.

White blood cells adhere to endothelial cells.

HIV hijacks the cell, inserting its own genes into the cell's DNA and uses it to manufacture more virus particles. These go on to infect other cells.

The CD4+ host cells eventually die, although scientists do not know exactly how.

The body's ability to fight diseases decreases as the number of CD4+ cells drops, until it reaches a critical point at which the patient is said to have Aids - Acquired Immune Deficiency Syndrome.

Deborah Jack, chief executive of the National Aids Trust, said the UCLA study was useful.

"We always welcome new research into the risks of HIV transmission, but these are very early findings and much more work needs to be done to prove a biological link between alcohol and HIV transmission.

"However, the influence of alcohol on the decision whether or not to have unprotected sex has already been established and particularly at this time of year we urge people to enjoy the festive season safely. "



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/4123193.stm

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