Since I raised the point, here are two real events that I think are worth sharing with other posters:

1. From my own direct knowledge. Farang (living permanently in Bkk) is HIV+ but never tells anybody, full AIDS not yet appeared, still enjoying quite OK health. Meets very pleasant (and hot) young man in an office and invites him to apartment. Farang convinces the young man to have bareback anal sex. The young man moves in quickly and they fuck each other regularly bareback. Farang regularly brings other boys home for threesomes. Eventualy threesome idea fades but farang still brings other boys home and live-in is regularly expected to go any sit/sleep in the 24 hr coffee shop attached to the apartment.

Both start to get sick and farang denies he is HIV-. Both quickly gravely ill, farang refuses to take care of the young man who is confirmed to have full lown AIDS and now too ill to work. Friends take him home to Northern province where he quickly dies on the floor of the family hut with no medication. (This is well before any form of cocktail is available in Thailand.) Farang hangs on a bit longer, buys a ticket to go home, very ill and weak but sill takes boys from bars. On the night before flight takes boy from bar, next morning holds a sale in his room and sells everything. Keeps enough money for his taxi fare to airport and departure tax, give s the balance of the sale proceeds to the one night stand - about 40,000Baht. Has no other further funds whatever. On arrival carried from aircraft. Refuses medical care, refuses ambulance transport, begs for money at airport for taxi fare to relatives house, dies 2 or 3 days later.


2. Initially related by my old Thai friend who published a gay magazine, then I became involved along with some other farang friends. Now about 12 / 14 years ago.

Farang comes to Bangkok (first time) for several weeks holiday. Meets young man who is working in a host bar to get enough funds to stay in university. Farang decides he will support his new 'boyfriend' and despite protests by BF he is set up in an expensive 2 bedroom apartment, around 50,000Baht per month rent plus utilities etc. Farang also pays a deposit on a large expensive motorcyle (which the boy doesn't want). Farang says he will send money every month for the rent / motorcycle payments, etc.

First month funds arrive, end of second month no funds, and rent/MC payment now late. Boy tries to ring his supporter but always encounters strange voices and 'not here / moved out / don't know where he is now' comments. Landlord now getting angry and daily calls from hire purchase company re MC payment. Young man is desperate, doesn't know what to do and he visits my Thai friend the magazine publisher for advice. (When there were many gay magazines it was common for boys with problems to visit / send letters to the publishers for advice.)

Boy takes 20Baht and goes outside for a quick meal. Comes back and his room has been padlocked. Landlord says 'no entry till rent is paid'. Boy asks if he can at least take his wallet with ID card. NO.
Boy also needs to register at Uni for next semester but cannot because all his personal documents are locked in the room and no money.

Landlord and MC company now getting real heavy and MC has been repossessed, but still large amount outstanding. Boy goes to Indian loan shark and borrows money to clear all the debt. Now landlord wants one month extra rent. That's borrowed also from loan shark. Typically the loan shark is adding 20% interest per month to the outstanding balance.

Study is now out of the question, he is now working several jobs to pay the loan shark. Starts work at 4am as a runner carrying crates etc in a fresh market, works as a waiter for 2 hrs at lunch time, works as a massage boy from 3pm then works in a go go bar every night, never has a day off. Lives in a tiny cockroach infested room off Soi Suan Phlu, no furniture, just a dirty blanket on the cement floor, shared filthy bathing area.

He pays back about 60% of the money in about 2 years. My magazine friend now mentions the story to me, for the first time. I call the farang in Sydney, he listens but says he can't help (and doesn't see why he should help) and doesn't want his Sydney BF to know about this situation.

I ask several other farang in Bkk to pool some money and we quickly pay off the debt. By this stage the young man is not at all keen to have any contact with farang and is initially conerned that there are strings attached.

He's now missed three years of study. We also give him enough funds to get back to uni (clothes/fees, etc), and pay six months rent on a room in a better building, pay for furniture, TV etc.

He goes back to his original host bar and continues uni. He's since graduated. I still see him ocassionally, he's a nice young man, and he now opens up and talks. He tells he would like to get married but he can't get close to anybody - can't trust anybody.

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Thanks for the post, Scoops. I, too, have heard first-hand stories about how farangs treat guys here in The Kingdom. When they're here on holiday, they are, quite often, free-wheeling with their money and think nothing about throwing it around. They think it is fun to "impress" Thai guys with how much they can buy. I have heard of guys buying their "special boyfriends" everything from motorcycles to cars to condos. And, as you've recounted, the Thai guy inevitably ends up on the short end of the stick.

You and your friends pooling money to help the second guy out is noble, indeed. He will be endebted to you in his heart forever. He will, of course, be eternally scarred by the treatment he received from the visiting farang and will, therefore, have a difficult time creating long-lasting relationships. I feel SO sorry for so many of these guys.

Thanks again for the sobering post.

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Very sad - and very sobering. So many posts on this board give the impression of farangs just using Thai guys like a piece of meat. True, that's one way of looking at money boys in particular, and we do after all pay for a service. But whether it's just a casual encounter or one that develops into some kind of longer relationship, these guys have lives and feelings which we should all respect. One thing I have found over many years is how many young Thai guys are desperate for 'affection' and even 'love'. And when you show them genuine affection, most (even though there are always some bad apples) will return it with interest and be hugely grateful for it. Ten years ago I helped one guy through University - and no-one could have a more loyal friend.

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I appreciate your view, but I think looking at compensation in terms of minimum pay that some day laborer or store clerk might earn is specious. Most construction workers or 7-Eleven clerks couldn't do what these boys do, at least not with the same elan as most of the guys I have offed manage. I'm not talking about someone who lies there like a slab of meat, but someone who makes me believe briefly that he's enjoying the sex with me as much as I am with him. He's a magician and an actor worthy of a star at Graumann's Chinese Theater.

EXACTLY! Sanook Maak Maak. He was having fun. I was having fun. For awhile I didn't have to remember I'm over 60 and ( if I were back in the US or UK) should be sitting at home alone with some stray cats and a cup of cocoa watching Jeopardy or Coronation Street on TV, and he didn't have to freeze to death standing half naked on a stage bouncing to some music he had heard 99,000 times before.

I'm not trying to outdo Mother Teresa or looking for a UN Humanitarian award. I really like most of the guys I end up with and I want them to feel good about themselves and I have ALWAYS been repaid many times over.

But do remember the guy was great to be with and ready to "perform" repeatedly BEFORE he knew what the tip was going to be. Our first night together, after repeated "encounters" of the very pleasant kind, I jokingly asked if we could go one more time and he responded, " For you, no problem." Remember money hadn't yet been discussed. It really made me wonder how badly he was normally treated if he could say something like that.

My point is that if someone keeps getting boys with attitude and who want to do as little as possible, no matter how many years that someone may have lived in Thailand, the problem may not be the boys. Even the few boys I've offed who didn't work out well were pleasant and trying to please, they just didn't click with me or they might have been more suited to clerking at 7-Eleven.

I know some people need to distance themselves from their sexual "partners" and disparaging them somehow helps to compensate for a poor sense of self esteem, but I don't want dehumanized sex. For that an inflatable doll would probably suffice.

Definitely: Sanook Maak Maak and Sanook samrab took khon!

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I agree they are accomplished liars. Not on the same scale as recent US presidents or UK prime ministers, but still far beyond anything most of us could pull off.

They'd have to be able to bend the truth with style to manage the illusion. When I look at these young sexy guys smiling at the usual customers in a gogo bar, I try to imagine what it must be like for them being confronted by some guy old enough to be their grandfather, who resembles a hirsute version of Margaret Thatcher and weighs about as much as (and smells a great deal like) their favorite water buffalo and still being able to convince the customer that doing something sexual with him is a turn on. I mean put these guys on a used car lot and sales would rocket.

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-- I do not pretend to have as much experience of bar-boyz etc. as many another correspondent in these threads has about BKK. and various facets of its life.
- But I do find it possibly strange that a farang and a bar-boi would go-out of an an a go-go bar without any prelim. discussions about price etc. etc. - rather trusting on both parties' parts, wasn't it?
-- bibi.. --

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Actually, no. I never discuss money before offing, and I don't think it should be necessary to do so -- as long as the customer knows what is customary and expected.

If the boy's expectations lie outside of what is normal, it is his responsibility to mention it before going off. No one I have offed has ever done so, however, and I have rarely had anyone be unhappy with what I have offered. If they were, then it was their problem.

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I agree with Icon 100%. I've "offed" around 300 boys and the issue of money is NEVER raised before leaving the bar. In my early naive days I remember asking on a couple of occasions, and the answer was always "up to you." The only time I would subsequently raise money as an issue was if more than 2 boys wanted to be offed for a "party" and I would explain that I could only afford 1,000 each max, which would always be eagerly accepted. Call me naive, but I only off boys who show interest in me, who I feel attracted to, and the money after the mutual satisfaction is like a gift to a friend, and always graciously accepted.

I didnt make it to the bars or sauna last week...arrived for Songkran....tuned into gay.com and met a delicious 22 yo boy, who after intial shyness, turned into an animal who I fucked 3 times in the afternoon, and after buying him dinner he turned down even the taxi fare I offered....asking only to meet again. If the same guy lived in Aust or US he wouldn't even look at a 50+ guy......which is what maks this place so amazing. Back in Jomtien I got a call from an 18 y.o. I'd met last month. He called from Sakon Nakorn to wish me happy Songkran..... I love this country.

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-- Hmmmmmm..
- I'm sure that you and Biggles know Th. boyz a lot better than I do; but I do wonder howmany Th. boyz would look-on it as 'Their responsibility.'?
- In the bar it's easier for the farang, having heard the expected amount, to back-down and to say 'Thanks, but no thanks.'; whereas -having 'offed.' the boi - back in the bedroom and post coetum I'd put the odds as MORE in favour of the Th. boi were he to become awkward about payment.
-- bibi.. --

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Dear Sextile.........I think you think too much ! First there are more boys available than farang customers so they are always delighted to be offed...(escape from bar, prospect of being fed, bedded and tipped....and maybe spend 1 or more nights in relative luxury), next as long as perfomance is ok they will not complain at min 1,000 bt (short time) and will be delighted with 2,000..(overnite)..... anything more is the jackpot, and anything less will a pursing of the lips and puppy eye look to express dissapointment. New farangs who have visited brothels in Europe /US know that $100 an hour is the starting price there, so are unlikely to try on a 2oo bt tip unless they are complete ass-holes, in which case they would deserve a tongue lashing from the boy.

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I, also, have never discussed tips with a boy before offing him. But also have been offing less as had a couple of regular boys "for free" (well other than dinners) for last couple of years that picked up off gay.com / gaydar.co.uk.

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Given your apparent experience in and about Bangkok, I find this to be a strange observation. I agree that to someone totally unfamiliar with the way things work in Thai gogo bars it might seem odd that the boys head off with a customer and no idea what they might get in the way of compensation, but no boy I've ever taken off in Bangkok, Chiang Mai or Pattaya has ever done otherwise. And, none has ever acted other than appreciative for what he's been given.

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I quite agree. In almost 30 years of visiting and now living in Thailand, I have never agreed a fee in advance, and can recall only one instance when a hustler type asked for a larger tip - he didn't get it!

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Friends tell me it's quite common in the bars in the South, near the Malaysian border

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Even though you did not get a reply to your request, scoops, I wonder if you went - and how did you find Khon Kaen? Am thinking of going in a couple of weeks.

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