John and I have been exchanging views on our college days sexperience. We touched down on the subject of some dudes 'growing up out of it', getting GFs and living str8 lives for better or worse.

I saw a similar thing happening within the gay context in those days, too.

Though web based porn did not exist in our time and day, all the guys I met were street wise. They may or may have not had sex at the time I met them but virtually everyone knew the mechanics of it. No doubt, a stash of porn was not that difficult to get by, and the VHS cassettes provided easy and relatively cheap way of disseminating porn among the friends.

Guys were perpetually horny, and everybody was looking for sex. You went to college to have some life after all the limitations of the HS.

Yet, relatively few guys knew if they wanted to top or bottom or go versatile; give BJ or receive them. The attitude was to get together and have sex, or start viewing yourself as someone who was either good for nothing or someone who was missing on the big chunk of fun out there. I'd venture to say that the virginity card was at a very low value in those days.

The basic default was that a 'bigger' dude topped a 'smaller' dude. Though, there were a few notable exceptions among the guys.

Dudes who were more clueless than the the others, less connected and integrated, new in town/school mostly ended up being bottoms unless the size of their endowment and/or the preference of the dude(s) they hooked up dictated otherwise.

I started topping because the very first guy I had hooked up with was smaller than me, and he wanted me to top him. Sure, I never looked back, and have stayed that way throughout life.

Yet, few bottom dudes started looking around, and were keen on exploring other possibilities.

Every fall, a new crop of freshmen would hit the town. The frogs were new, inexperienced, had no friends, were horny and willing to try anything. This is how some of the known bottom dudes got to top, too.

Some liked it. Some did not. A few of the dudes who started enjoying the topping part soon 'grew up on being bottoms', and started spending more time with the newbies who they were topping.

A dude whom I was topping with quite some regularity for two years told me one evening that he started topping, too. And wow, this was so much fun, and he loved it. He would still bottom for me, for the sake of good ole times, but made it abundantly clear that he changed his preference.

Since we really liked each other and connected on more levels than just sex, we stayed in touch, and developed a hang for the threesomes with the two of us usually spitroasting another dude. After a few such encounters, my FB showed renewed interest in bottoming for me again. He also made it clear that he was doing it under the condition of total discretion, too. The other guys were not supposed to know, since he was not into bottoming for anyone else.

I discovered a passion for topping dudes who just topped other dudes, and our friendship continued for a while.

KD

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Not as much in college because by then you were a bit older and had more life experience - but back in Jr High and High School there were a lot of guys that experimented and then moved on.

Girls were brought up to value their virginity - it was something special to be saved and given out only to that magical first love.

Guys were walking hard ons - we wanted to loose our virginity as fast as possible - or at least get our rocks off.

Games like strip poker or truth or dare always led to being naked and usually getting off together - but it was never considered gay sex.

I find it so funny all the talk about them accepting gay Boy Scouts. When I went to scout camp there was more masturbation and fooling around there than in a bath house! But yet we all felt it was just getting off - not gay sex.

Most of it was viewed almost like they do in the Navy, prisons, etc. - it was opportunity sex - they were not having sex with a guy because they wanted sex with a guy - it was just what was available at a time and age when the girls were not wanting to put out.

Most of it was masturbation or blow jobs - this was for practical reasons - those could be done quickly and anywhere - less chance of getting caught. But also it was because that was considered "just getting off" if you fucked or kissed - that implied real sex - and real GAY sex - and the kissing implied an emotional connection. And in both cases at those ages we were trying to convince ourselves that we were not gay - we were only doing this because it was our only option. With some of guys it clearly was more - but with the stigma of being "a homo" no one wanted to go there.

Sometimes it was a one time thing - others it might go on for months and months - but with many of these guys eventually either the girlfriend started to put out or they began to feel guilty about doing something "wrong" and they stopped.

If it was a friend where sex was the only real thing you have in common - the friendship faded. If you were friends where sex was just part of what you did sometimes the friendship continued and you just did not talk about the fact you used to have sex. We both knew it - sometimes you looked at each other and you both knew what you were thinking - but you put it in the past and moved on in order to remain friends.

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When I was discovering my homosexuality, I had no idea of top/bottom and I was put off by anal, though others saw me as more feminine, therefore assumed I was bottom. However, my first boyfriend was 100% bottom. He did all the sucking and insisted I fuck him at every single sex session. So I did. Since then there's been no turning back. Now I only top. In oral I would only be sucked, unless we're doing 69. It helps that I'm big. But it's strange that one set of events way back in my younger days did set the course of history, so to speak.

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I can only agree with you. Unless you started in a very structured environment where most dudes knew their roles, and would stick with them, it would be inevitably a sheer coincidence that would make you a top or bottom. The good side of the sex DL is that you could always go and explore other roles, if you wanted to. There would be no one to know or stop you from doing so.

In more structured environments changing roles required a bit more effort, and may be facing more than just a sheer lack of enthusiasm on the part of the other player with their vested interests.

KD

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When my curiosity about having sex with men started, I immediately knew I was going to be a bottom. So when I exchanged emails with my first NSA, I stated that I liked being a bottom, but I never told him it was my first time. So when I met him in his semi-truck, I felt so comfortable with that 'role' that i had no problem sucking his cock and taking him in my ass. It felt so natural, and I was really good at sucking his dick.

I don't think I'll ever be a top though. Now I've been experimenting with 'thinking as a woman' while I'm with a man. Its so sexy when he treats me like one too.

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I believe that this is the default narrative if there really is one.

A dude who chooses to bottom must have done some thinking, soul-searching, etc., beforehand. Bottoming involves a bit more preparation, and yeah, it pre-supposes that you'd be doing something that is not a mere male default of putting your cock in wet hole, doing some thrusting in there, hoping that the other guy will like it, and that both you and he will get your rocks off.

I see no reason for someone who is perfectly happy with his role to consider changing it. True, nothing is written in stone these days, and there are quite a few bottoms I have met over the years who are happy to change sides either occasionally or for good, but IMHE, these guys are more of an exception than a rule.

Until relatively recently, even a few gay guys would happily get involved into 'bottom shaming'. Some of it still persists today but, by and large, this phenomenon is a matter of the past.

There is a sort of pretty wide-reaching consensus out there that a dude does what he feels works for him best.

KD

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I wanted to add here that when I started having sex, I was a bottom but that wasn't a conscious choice. I simply didn't know what to do and usually looked for someone to "show me how." Being introverted, I waited for guys to approach me and I was pretty selective at least in the early years. Some of those rejections I regret having made now.

Because my dick is actually pretty large (well, I really didn't know until I started having sex and seeing other hard dicks) a lot of guys wanted me to be a top for them. Some of them wanted it but then decided it was "too big." This was a frustrating experience and certainly didn't help me learn how to do it.

This was all from 1984 onward, and there was also the issue of HIV/AIDS on almost everyone's mind -- but not all, as I first discovered in a GWU campus bathroom and later at parties or in various sexclubs. It was a time when you had to decide for yourself what was "safe" or "safe enough" and take responsibility for your own health. There was a lot of debate and some misinformation as well, and of course some tried to lecture or compel all gay men to behave the same. You know how that worked out.

For me personally it wasn't until some point in the early 90s that I really felt comfortable in the top role, and by my 30s I had guys, even older guys, wanting me to be their Daddy. I get pleasure from giving guys pleasure. I also sometimes want to have a sense of control, other times let go of myself and have no control at all, simply feelings and urges and sex. Thus, I became adaptable but most guys still wanted me to be a top.

Time marches on. As I've mentioned before, my social and sexual life is on the back burner because of my other responsibilities, and that's OK for now. In time that will change, and that's also OK.

I really need to stop here, leaving you with a quote from Rabelais writing in "Gargantua":

"Fais ce que tu voudras" or in English, "Do what thou wilt"

It's been a long, long time since I read that and those books from the 1500s are heavy going but the words hold true, I think.

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This post, too, confirms that in case of doubt, men mostly wanted the 'bigger' guy to top. If he turned out to be 'too big' for their comfort, they wanted to reverse the roles. That too, is somehow understandable, especially if the bigger dude shows that he is open to such an option.

It is also true that, in the end, every dude out there can call his shots and decide what role he wants to play in general, and in any particular case. If he sticks to his guns, that's how it is going to be.

Now, in closely knit coteries, changing your sexual role becomes a bit of a communal event, and the guys are usually prone to comment on it. Yet, if a dude wants to go on with his plan, no one will really stop him.

One important exception is the anatomy. There is hardly any demand out there for very small tops. So, if the dude lacks what it takes, he may want it, but the others are not likely to go along with his plan.

KD

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I really understand this - and I think it is part of what helped me accept that I liked gay sex. As opposed to some buddies that were just fooling around to get off - all that mattered was that they get to cum - I enjoyed sucking cock. It gave me pleasure to give him pleasure.







It is amazing how many things I never thought I would do ("OK - I will jerk off with him but I am not going to touch his." "OK - we will jerk each other off but I am never going to suck his." "OK - we can suck each other but I am never going to let him cum in my mouth..." etc etc etc)

I never had a problem with anyone "sicking to their guns" and saying there are things they do and do not like - but it is also nice when they can say they tried it....




Very true - so many base top and bottom only on size. But sometimes desire is more important than size. I had one buddy - great guy - good looking - fantastic personality - but his cock was not long or thick. Great at blow jobs and a willing bottom. Once when we had a few too many beers he told me he had always wanted to top but no one ever let him. I just asked why he never mentioned it before and told him to go for it. What he lacked in size he made up for with enthusiasm!

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Sure, a dude wanted to get his rocks off, one way or the other. That comes with the territory. The key cultural trait with East Med societies has been the love of sex, though.

A dude with a healthy right or left hand can shoot his load. Our narrative strongly suggested that you were either one of the guys who had sex with other folks, or you were a loser confined to solitary exploration. So, relatively very few guys thought it satisfactory alone to get their rocks off, and move on. You were a player because you enjoyed the sexual encounter and many of its intricacies. Soon enough, you built your reputation as a good player, and you sure, tried your utmost to live up to it. Outright selfishness was very much shunned by everyone.


This is where the cultural traits caused a great difference in actual behavior.

Every dude had his limits. But first, and foremost we were all players, and were trying to make sure that the limitations never seriously impacted the play. First off, you were looking for a compatible mate. Second off, you showed some flexibility when and where it was needed. No total top had problems with grabbing his bttm's dick to help him shoot. If your best buddy was a total top, and the two of you were incompatible, you soon found a happy bottom to share, so that the the two tops could kiss, lick, and generally enjoy each other while sharing the same bottom. Once it was aptly shown that both tops were great at what they were doing, and the happy bottom was sent home, one of the top guys would return to bottom for his friend. Naturally, this was a top secret that always stayed just between the two of you. The tops had a vested interest in preserving their image and reputation, so indiscretions here were unthinkable of. Usually, the guy who topped the top felt obligated to show some extra generosity to his mate, too.

Since we were 'the players', kissing was a big part of the game, and no dude ever said, 'sex yes, but kissing no - that'll make me a fag.'

Hardly anyone ever expressed any fear that their m2m sexual encounters were actually making them fags. The idea was to have sex, simple, easy, and plenty of it. As opposed to being a loser who got none.

We are talking the pre-internet age. The only source of knowledge about sex we gathered came from the stories of our elder brothers, uncles, and some of their friends, in addition to what we were able to gather from the porn. So, we were all growing up in a totally phallocentric culture which equalized man's masculinity first and foremost with the size of his equipment.

So, the bigger guy gets to top by default. And everyone wants to top (at least, for the record), because that's what the men do. A smaller dude, may or may have not liked the 'rule' but the whole thing appeared somehow just to all of us.

Paradoxically, this made bottoming so much easier because you were just assuming the role that the nature dealt you with. We all cracked countless jokes about the bttm dudes but there was hardly any bottom shaming at all.

Sure, bigger was always better than smaller. But the smaller dudes had a role to play, and they were equal players.

All of us were still growing, and a small freshman may have turned into a bigger soph. If he wanted to top, he would hook up with the smaller dudes than himself, and bingo, he had a go, too. Some of his more versatile mates would also let him top them, naturally, in exchange for a face-saving favor, a small gift or a gesture of appreciation. Topping always came with its caveats, and it seemed that we all liked playing it along those lines.

Eventually, the very small dudes who also stayed on the very small side usually felt that m2m sex was a good, possibly only outlet for their pent up energy. Again, we are talking a very phallocentric culture here, and a very small dude (or so was the pervading opinion) simply did not have a chance to start dating girls, get married, have kids, as most of the average and bigger players were planning to do. The guys mostly believed that a very small guy simply did not stand any chance with any of the girls to start with. And besides, why were they going to humiliate themselves and get rejected anyway, when there were all those men around only too happy to oblige?

SC

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Here in the United States with our Puritan origins it was very different. The origins of our culture are that sex is for having children in marriage - not just for fun. Although that goes totally against the physical reality the ideal is still buried deep in the culture.

Our growing bodies were telling us we wanted - NEEDED to have sex - but even though I grew up after the sexual revolution of the 60's society still said you should wait for marriage.

That is why even masturbation was something to be done in private and not talked about. When you did have a buddy that you jacked off with - or maybe started jacking each other - or moved on to sex you made sure no one ever knew.

Your justification was this is my only option and I am just doing it to get off - kissing and making out was an acknowledgment that you were enjoying the sex not only doing it to get off.

And for us that was a major step.

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I find those cultural contrasts very fascinating.

Yet, even in East Med culture(s) very few guys ever talked about masturbation. Sure, everybody did it. Everybody knew about it. So, this was taken for granted, and no one thought that this was a subject fit for any conversation even among the guys who were sexually intimate with each other.

Our narrative was simply based on the premise that sex was something enjoyable that the adults practiced with each other.

The major step was deciding that you were going to be one of the 'in-crowd' of free, open-minded adults who were enjoying their lives to the fullest. Or you chose to stay out of the game because you were not mature enough for it, had some sort of serious disability, etc.

The main idea was to enjoy sex. No one thought that you were necessarily gay because you were enjoying m2m sex. It was important to be a player, to enjoy what was readily available, and go on with your day.

This also explains the little attention we used to pay to the guys who moved on, and sort of petered away from our close-knit coteries. They did not really stop playing. They found a girlfriend (or a boyfriend), and started a monogamous relationship until it broke, and they started looking for fun elsewhere.

KD

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I didn't really do any 'soul-searching' or anything like that when I decided to be a bottom. I just watched a deep-throat compilation porn video too 'closely,' thought what it would be like to have a cock in my mouth, and the thought got so intense that I just decided to do it. I knew exactly what type of man I wanted to have sex with (older stocky/chubby men, like my first top), and I seek them out constantly when I'm in the mood to cruise. I also don't worry about the other guy not liking it, because I have yet to have a cock go soft in my mouth or ass!

I don't go that deep with the lifestyle, so I don't know what 'bottom shaming' is.

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I see your point weekend_boy. You saw something that you thought was very pleasing to you, and you DECIDED to go for that. This is precisely the point I was trying to make. One way or the other, with or without any genuine soul-searching, you decided to go for a bottom role. For whatever your reason may have been, you decided that this was going to be what you wanted to do. And you even knew what type of man would best suit your fantasy. In other words, you have made a specific plan of what and with whom you were going to mess around with.

My top buddies and I really never made any plan or made any choices before the actual play took place. I bumped into a dude who said, 'fuck me', so, I fucked him. I am not sure that I would have bottomed for him if he had asked me to, though.

We simply assumed that a guy's role is to fill wet available holes for the mutual pleasure of the players involved, so, no additional planning or decision making of any sort was really needed for us to top.

Bottom shaming is now largely the thing of the past. The idea that a male decided/agreed to be penetrated by other guy(s) did not generally sit to well with a largely macho culture and many of its traits. So, the top guys assumed the roles of being 'real men' - they were fucking anyway, AND thought it opportune to deride the fellow bttm guys who were deemed to be less manly, passive, almost female recipients of an all-male sexual largesse.

Men tend to like hierarchical structures based on so called 'commonly known truths'. Saying, 'I do not like Joe, which makes him my inferior.', would not have really worked. Very few people would agree that anyone should be given the arbitrary power to promote or demote guys as he thought fit. Now, if you could 'objectively' claim that their behavior (i.e., being sexually receptive - just like females) made them inferior, well, that sounded like a plan. Shaming bottoms insured that such hierarchies would be perpetuated for a relatively long time.

KD

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