I think it is highly likely that the Burmese boys you refer to are considered illegal immigrants. If Thai police read this board (which they probably do), the Burmese may be kicked out of the country. What do the moderators think? Should the name of the hotel where they work have been deleted to protect them.......?

Chakran is not closed. Far from it. I went (out of solidarity) on Sunday night and it seemed busier than ever. People power! I also had a wonderful time, as I always do; so I really can't understand all this talk of it being 'sticky-rice' etc etc.
I did see one farang make a grab at a young boy and be given, quite rightly, a polite but firm brush off. If that is the kind of behaviour that has led farang to suppose Chakran is a Tha-rak-Thai establishment, then I am not at all surprised.

Glad to hear that Chakran has bounced back. Once they learn what the present limitations are (vis-a-vis shows, apparently) there should be no further problems. At least, until the limitations change -- this is Thailand, after all!

I, too, resist the "sticky rice" label that people seem to use in reference to all saunas other than Babylon.

Babylon is a special case. I've said it before and I'll say it again: the Elephant Man could get laid at Babylon. Just be white and have a pulse.

The other saunas are more "normal" in their tastes: young, good-looking, in-shape guys looking to get it on primarily with other young, good-looking, in-shape guys.

If you are young, good-looking, and in-shape -- no matter what your race -- you will have a great time at Chakran, The Beach, or anywhere else. Otherwise, an old, ugly, out-of-shape farang will not have any more, or less, luck than an old, ugly, out-of-shape Thai guy would.

That doesn't seem too unfair, does it?

[ April 01, 2002: Message edited by: icon513 ]

Icon, i think same you about the other saunas. I am not young but not ugly and in-shape and sometimes I am lucky in the Chakran, Beach, Heaven Saunas. But sometimes not and this is no problem for me because I know the difference to the babylon. But befor the Obelisk Sauna for me was better then Chakran, everytime I had a good time with thaiman. Where are going the customers from the Obelisk now?

You are exactly right Icon. Also I might add, it's a whole lot more fun at these places if you take a Thai friend, so lurking time is less or eliminated altogether. Steam groping is good clean fun, but accept a brushoff with a smile.

I was at COA last week, the night of the Chakran show and found some pleasant, slim and friendly young Thais. The staff were good and two particularly, in prison-type(lateral rings) T shirts were sitting on the 5th floor stairway handing out condoms and gropes..one has really hard stomach muscles. I took a friend, but was bothered by a middle-aged, fat, semi-drunk guy who kept following me and wouldn't go away. But it's great for a break when down that way.

Not an unfair comment at all, Icon, except that I AM old, ugly and out-of-shape; and I STILL have a good time at Chakran.

Maybe it's my impeccable good manners....

I'd have to agree with many of the nasty comments written about Babs lately. The owner is super rich, but doesn't seem to care about the customers much. I'm there quite often and am 'attached' to one of the staff...so I know what I'm talking about.

Complaints:

1. Is it really very difficult to have a working drainage system, so you're not wading knee-high is nasty, cum-filled (and I'm sure HIV infected) water?

2. The staff are exploited, and the reason they are surly is because, a. most of them are not gay, b. most are really uneducated, c. they are hired not based on skill or experience but because they are family members of the manager.

3. EXTREMELY bad design, lots of things to crack your head against in the dark, narrow walkways.

4. The staff lack basic training. At the old Babs, whenever you passed a staff member, they always said "hi". Now, they don't even give you the right of way when they are walking! Bad service...(with some exceptions, of course)

5. How come the price keeps going up, but the quality doesn't?

6. I seriously doubt the lube in the rooms is water-based and condom safe.

Well...sorry for the rant...

I agree , that lube is not safe.It doesn't work anyhow with regarding to being a lubricant and slippery. I take my own lube there. Even the sleazy Kingsteam in Sydney has decent lube and condoms everywhere, giving everyone just one condom is silly.
I do enjoy the gym and pool also the food.

__________________
Patrick

A previous posting describes run off water as "HIV infected".I thought the disease was transmitted through bodily fluids only and couldn't survive outside.Happy to be re educated on this one.

..Last time I checked, Babs wasn't trolling for clients, unlike every other Bangkok tubs.. so whatever they're doing, like it or not, the like its way outnumber the like nots... And remember, ladies, no one's got a gun to your back marching you in there...

My understanding is that HIV usually lives only a few seconds after leaving the body. I believe (someone please correct if I'm wrong) the virus is killed by the change in temperature.

Logic then says water could be HIV infected if the right temerature. Don't know how much deviation from body temp it can stand. But anyway you'd have to sit it the hiv infected sewage water and finger (-fist) fuck yourself (OK so having been to Babylon perhaps that might happen ;-) ) or find some other way to get it through one of your other mucous membranes for it to actually get into your blood.

Babylon does advertise on the free gay maps the same as other saunas. No freebies but I don't think that's desperate trolling anyway.
I agree the fact it's popular says enough but it's basically the only place a farang of any appearance can go and find some guys who see him as a potential shag and don't object to total pushy grab fest. Anywhere else is more hit and miss(i.e you have to be vaguely cute to score). Also more polite. I'm happy this place (babs) exists since it means the clientele who want this don't mess up the more polite gentle ways of other places. I think it means there are places for everyone & even for differrent moods. I tend to choose my sauna according to what I want that day.

BTW Sukhothai now bt139 without freeby undies again but with lots of guys instead.

I used to work in the HIV/AIDS field for several years. Here's some information from the SF AIDS Foundation:

HIV Survival Outside The Body
Generally, when people ask the question, "How long can HIV survive outside the body?" they have come into contact with some body fluid that they think might contain HIV, and are worried about transmission. Almost always these questions are about casual contact, and we know the virus is not transmitted except during unprotected sex, sharing needles, or through significant and direct exposure to infected blood.

Length of time
The length of time HIV can survive outside the body depends on:

the amount of HIV present in the body fluid;
what conditions the fluid is subjected to
In a laboratory, HIV has been kept viable (able to infect) for up to 15 days, and even after the body fluid containing it had dried. However, these experiments involved an extremely high concentration of the virus which was kept at a stable temperature and humidity. These conditions are very unlikely to exist outside of a laboratory. HIV is very fragile, and many common substances, including hot water, soap, bleach and alcohol, will kill it.

Risk of transmission
The chances of becoming infected with HIV by handling a body fluid are extremely small, because that fluid will rarely have access to a person's bloodstream. However, anyone handling blood, semen or vaginal fluids should be careful to avoid touching them with broken skin or getting them into mucous membranes (such as those around the eye). Spills of blood should be mopped up, cleaned with soap and water, then cleaned with bleach. For maximum safety, the person cleaning the spill should also wear latex gloves, and should wash the hands thoroughly after the cleanup.

Exposure to air
Air does not "kill" HIV, but exposure to air dries the fluid that contained the virus, and that will destroy or break up much of the virus very quickly. The CDC reports that drying HIV reduces viral amount by 90-99 percent within several hours.


It angers me immensely that Babylon does not offer any safe sex information, gives only one condom, uses probably unsafe lube, provides lots of skin lotion (which Thai guys use a lot and don't know it damages condoms) and then can't even keep the place clean (proper drainage, etc.)

Further to that.I went to Nice Guys once when I was in BKK last month, it is quite well appointed but when the guy was about to fuck me he put on the condom then started to use the body lotion with which he massaged me as a lubricant, this was obviously an oil based lotion, Sorboline, which is not water based and therefor dangerous, I refused to allow him to proceed and he seemed puzzled, they did not have proper water based lube available and they seemed to think I was crazy.It never ceased to amaze me at the limited amount of knowledge these guys have with regard to safe sex. In Babylon and Lumphini Park I was offered sex on several occasions "bareback", either these guys have Aids or soon will have.There does not seem to be the concentrated campaign that they have here in Australia where the HIV problem is almost eliminated.So very sad that these young guys are exposing themselves to such danger.

__________________
Patrick

Maybe just a little response from my last Bangkok-trip now end of March/begin of April; well I must really say that I was quite disappointed by Babs nowadays.. well - really not first time for me.. but during this last trip, I really had a bad impression from Babylon.. the Thai guys there really seem to get older and not so nice and before... Or I am getting to expect too much.. inflation effects?.. Well, the Chakran was still same as last year, some nice guys, but a bit difficult to find action there.. the guys are too shy there.. I think. - And Hero? I was the only one there in the sauna - together with a Dutch guy - on a Friday late afternoon ...:-(

The discussion about HIV transmission should be read and understood.The final word is this. PRACTICE SAFE SEX ONLY DON'T TAKE RISKS. If you don't know what safe sex is then find out and quickly.! Two other things. Bablylon's lube is definately unsafe. It is not water based. Take your own and your own condoms. Ones you know you can trust. Finally avoid the foam party. Certain skin mites can survive and be transmitted within the foam. I have a very handsome and sexy Thai pal who thought it was all fun until he had skin rashes after his second foam party in a row. He now avoids the Foam party.